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What Evidence Would Be Sufficient To Prove Reincarnation?

Ok, just for fun, here is a hypothetical:

A young child demands to be taken to a certain bank in a certain city.

The parent's take it there, whereupon the child asks to speak to the bank's president.

When the president arives, the child says something like: " I am Reginald Swivens. The blue horse flies swiftly."

The president leaves and returns with a key to a safety deposit box, which he presents to the child.

When the box is opened, in it are found notarized legal documents that detail the plans of one Reginald Swivens (deceased) to attempt to return and claim the papers after he is reincarnated. The entire plan is laid out in the documents, including the strange code phrase. The documents also mention that as a safe gaurd against trickery, only Mr. Swivens and his lawyer knew of the plan, and as luck would have it, they are both dead at tihe time of the opening of the box.

Naturally the parents say they had no idea what was going on and that it is not a trick.

So, would this scenario provide sufficient prove that Mr. Swivens had been reincarnated in the child's body? Why or why not?

Would it make a difference if the child was entitled to all or part of Mr. Swivens's assets after claiming the box?

If it was acomplished by trickery, how might that have been done?

My hope is that we can get a fun and interesting discussion out of this.

Regards, Canis

If we weren't supposed to know about reincarnation* then why would there be signs of reincarnation.

*reincarnation apologist argument #1 as to why we don't remember past lives is that we're not supposed to.
 
The problem as I see it is that when it comes to a supernatural explanation like reincarnation, it is not sufficient merely to rule out all normal explanations.

Let's assume that an experiment is conducted in which a randomly chosen secret phrase is given to people just before they die. For thought experiment purposes assume that all mundane methods by which the phrase could be told to anyone else are controlled, and that the phrase itself is kept recorded in a perfectly secure location. Now assume that a child is born and as soon as they can talk is able to recite the test phrase.

Does this prove reincarnation? No. The child could have gotten the phrase through remote viewing. The child could have talked to the ghost of the dead person. Perhaps the child is possessed by a demon who learned the phrase in the afterlife. Or may the child had the phrase implanted in their head during an alien abduction, or had it told to them by a mischievous trickster god, or have the ability to psychically talk to people across time, or any of an infinite number of other supernatural explanations. Any one of these explanations is no less reasonable than reincarnation. You don't get to pick reincarnation just because you've ruled out all normal explanations for anomalous information transfer.

If you want to 'prove' reincarnation, you first need to rigorously define just what exactly reincarnation is. Is it the soul of the living being re-born in someone else after they die? Ok, now you need to define 'soul', and devise a way to detect the soul and identify unique souls. Said method of detecting souls will need to work reliably and clearly without human intervention, something similar to how we can match DNA samples with near-perfect accuracy. Once you've worked that out, you can then begin mass profiling of people's souls. If reincarnation is occurring, a clear pattern should pop out where newborns have soul-profiles matching those of the recently dead.
 
IOW, you still believe in reincarnation and want to help "research" into it by asking a lot of questions over here.

I don't understand why you can't be honest about that. It's far worse to be dishonest.

Now, I might be mistaken, of course, but everything points to you being a reincarnationist:
  • you're asking for evidence to prove, not falsify
  • your constant self-labeling as skeptic
  • your temper when confronted with discrepancies in your story, arguments, etc.
  • you claimed to have believed once, studied it even, but don't believe now; you claimed to have lost "faith" because you found some logical errors in its foundations, then retracted this; the question remains: why do you not believe now?
  • a lot of smaller clues like the above one about your agenda ("to find a way to pursue reincarnationists that their research WOULD be accepted")

I'm sorry if you feel I'm still attacking you. I don't know you. I'm attacking what's presented here on this forum. You have been given a lot of chances to come clean, so to speak. You're still claiming to be a skeptic, but everything you post seems to point to the fact that you're not.
I know that Illiadus has left now, but ITA. I answered the OP question honestly, answered some of the follow-up questions, but noted the misrepresentations and occasional ad-hom attacks, and inconsistencies in what Illadius posted about his own skepticism/concerns when dealing with those who believe in reincarnation.

I don't know if he and his friends got enough information to help them in the next phase of reincarnation substantiation, but if we start seeing claims of babies composing concertos and reciting Swiss bank account numbers, we'll know what started it. :cool:
 
Does this prove reincarnation? No. The child could have gotten the phrase through remote viewing. The child could have talked to the ghost of the dead person. Perhaps the child is possessed by a demon who learned the phrase in the afterlife. Or may the child had the phrase implanted in their head during an alien abduction, or had it told to them by a mischievous trickster god, or have the ability to psychically talk to people across time, or any of an infinite number of other supernatural explanations. Any one of these explanations is no less reasonable than reincarnation. You don't get to pick reincarnation just because you've ruled out all normal explanations for anomalous information transfer.

That's a very good point. Anomalous knowledge might be evidence for some supernatural phenomenon, but it would not necessarily be reincarnation.
 
The problem as I see it is that when it comes to a supernatural explanation like reincarnation, it is not sufficient merely to rule out all normal explanations.

Let's assume that an experiment is conducted in which a randomly chosen secret phrase is given to people just before they die. For thought experiment purposes assume that all mundane methods by which the phrase could be told to anyone else are controlled, and that the phrase itself is kept recorded in a perfectly secure location. Now assume that a child is born and as soon as they can talk is able to recite the test phrase.

Does this prove reincarnation? No. The child could have gotten the phrase through remote viewing. The child could have talked to the ghost of the dead person. Perhaps the child is possessed by a demon who learned the phrase in the afterlife. Or may the child had the phrase implanted in their head during an alien abduction, or had it told to them by a mischievous trickster god, or have the ability to psychically talk to people across time, or any of an infinite number of other supernatural explanations. Any one of these explanations is no less reasonable than reincarnation. You don't get to pick reincarnation just because you've ruled out all normal explanations for anomalous information transfer.

If you want to 'prove' reincarnation, you first need to rigorously define just what exactly reincarnation is. Is it the soul of the living being re-born in someone else after they die? Ok, now you need to define 'soul', and devise a way to detect the soul and identify unique souls. Said method of detecting souls will need to work reliably and clearly without human intervention, something similar to how we can match DNA samples with near-perfect accuracy. Once you've worked that out, you can then begin mass profiling of people's souls. If reincarnation is occurring, a clear pattern should pop out where newborns have soul-profiles matching those of the recently dead.

Super post!
 
I'm trying to convince believers that most skeptics, like myself, have an open mind and can be objective and fair when looking at the woo evidence. I'm doing this so that they'll listen to sound criticism of their work. In the future, I will have to admit to them that the only advice they'd get from many skeptics - not all - is to stop what they're doing because it will never lead anywhere.

Or am I misrepresenting your view?

Yes. As usual. You imply I'm advising all believers to simply stop all attempts to understand the phenomenon they believe in.

When actually I'm advising believers to start trying to understand what they believe in. And I'm recommending they start it by defining what that something is.

So yeah, I don't really see how you could have misrepresented me more blatantly without claiming I actually believe in reincarnation.

I realize you may not be doing this on purpose. But seriously. Stop it.
 
Ok, just for fun, here is a hypothetical:

A young child demands to be taken to a certain bank in a certain city.

The parent's take it there, whereupon the child asks to speak to the bank's president.

When the president arives, the child says something like: " I am Reginald Swivens. The blue horse flies swiftly."

The president leaves and returns with a key to a safety deposit box, which he presents to the child.

When the box is opened, in it are found notarized legal documents that detail the plans of one Reginald Swivens (deceased) to attempt to return and claim the papers after he is reincarnated. The entire plan is laid out in the documents, including the strange code phrase. The documents also mention that as a safe gaurd against trickery, only Mr. Swivens and his lawyer knew of the plan, and as luck would have it, they are both dead at tihe time of the opening of the box.

Naturally the parents say they had no idea what was going on and that it is not a trick.

So, would this scenario provide sufficient prove that Mr. Swivens had been reincarnated in the child's body? Why or why not?

Would it make a difference if the child was entitled to all or part of Mr. Swivens's assets after claiming the box?

If it was acomplished by trickery, how might that have been done?

My hope is that we can get a fun and interesting discussion out of this.

Regards, Canis
Well, Mr. Swivens was obviously a bit eccentric and for some reason chose not to leave his assets to his friend or family. Therefore, he may likely also have been a bit of prankster with a plan to leave his assets to someone else without a legal challenge, and gets some people’s goats while he was at it. He had met Mr. Davidson and liked him very much, although he was not known to any of his friends and family. He decided to leave his assets to Mr. Davidson; or, rather, his yet unborn son. He tells Mr. Davidson, “I know that you plan to have children in a few years. After I die, when your child is six years old, take the child to First National Bank and tell the child to say ‘I am Reginald Swivens. The blue horse flies swiftly.’ A very special prize awaits! This is special secret. Tell nobody about this conversation!”

So Mr. Swivens gets the last laugh and little Billy Davidson gets his inheritance, which is not only legally sound but also so baffling that none of his family can even begin to contest it. Way to go, Mr. Swivens! ;)
 
I hadn't learned to use the quote feature then, so it wasn't obvious that it was in response to a question directed at me.

I find your example childish and overworked. There is no research being done into the existence of grues. There is research being done into the existence of reincarnation, and has been for several decades.

As much as you and others want me to throw you the ball so you can hit it, you can't make me change my agenda, which is to find a way to pursue reincarnationists that their research WOULD be accepted if it had certain qualities that are agreed upon by the majority of skeptics.

That's what this thread is about, whether you like it or not. It may be time to end it, but that's what it's about, to me at least. I'm not the boss of this thread, but I'm the boss of me.
Well, I did say, “Of course, this is all silly.” It is an analogy to demonstrate the problems inherent in attempting to provide proof of reincarnation. Specifically, that it is an obsolete theory and resurrecting without cause is like the grue—a solution in search of a problem.

We are expected to devise a test that can prove reincarnation. Yet we have unexplained phenomenon for which we are using reincarnation as a hypothesis to begin building a test. We have no logical explanation or theory of reincarnation by which we could attempt to investigate segments of the reincarnation process or logically required prediction of the theory that could be tested. We don’t, as we might expect if reincarnation were true, have tens of thousands, or even millions, of accounts of people exhibiting strong evidence of reincarnation that we can analyze.

So in what direction do we go to find this proof? Well, the grue analogy was meant to point out that in this type of situation, you end up with a solution in search of a problem, and the search end up directionless. If a person pursues this proof, what we get is something like the life’s work of Dr. Ian Stevenson. We get a large pile of rambling data, with some confirmation bias thrown in. Nothing to prove reincarnation (even as Stevenson admits), and also no evidence that is accepted as falsifying reincarnation. This, of course, allows reincarnation researchers to go on and on and on forever and never getter nearer to the truth.

This brings us back to the original question: WOULD BE SUFFICIENT TO PROVE REINCARNATION?

I think the answer is fairly obvious (in regards to past life memory). We would first need observable data of an unexplainable phenomenon for which reincarnation is a more plausible explanation than cheating, subconscious memory, logical deduction, or coincidence or lucky guessing. Of course these things are very difficult, if not impossible to measure. And this does not give a specific, concrete example of what skeptics would accept as proof of reincarnation.

The original post seems to be asking this: What is the specific X that reincarnation researchers could provide that would result in skeptics believing that reincarnation is real so that I can go to the reincarnation researchers and tell them, “You just need to provide evidence X and skeptics will accept reincarnation.”

Of course, there is no X. Or if there is an X, it would be something like “A few hundred extremely well-documented case where a child provided information that could not be known or logically deduced and is that would be completely off the charts in terms of probability or coincidence and that was verifiable and was verified as 100% accurate where there is absolutely, positively no chance that the child could have known the information by any other normal means whatsoever.”

In a “set up” thread this is the point where the original poster does the “gotcha” and points out that skeptics are close minded and won’t accept any evidence or will only accept entirely, ridiculously, impossible-to-obtain evidence and won’t be open to the truth and reincarnation is beyond the realm of science because science can’t explain everything and science is just a religion and pseudo-skeptics are just worshippers of Randi who blindly dismiss any claims according to what the pseudo-skeptic dogma decrees, and so on.

I’ve tried to point out why reincarnation (or more specially, past life memory) would be so difficult to prove and why there is no “X marks the spot” that reincarnation researchers can provide that will be convincing evidence of reincarnation, and that the mountain of combination of very excepted evidence that could fit the bill is probably not obtainable, and that it is not a worthy pursuit.

The actually answer is: only overwhelming extraordinary incontrovertible evidence lacking another possible explanation would begin to open the door to the plausibility that reincarnation is true. You can take that truth to the reincarnation researchers that you are trying to debunk, but that answer seems quite obvious and I have a hunch its not going to get you very far. ;)
 
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This is a nail that just need hammering.

Reincarnation researchers have no basis for their belief: no evidence, no phenomenon, no theory, not even a definition. They simply accept the belief. They then sally forth, directionless, out into the woods, hunting for the grue…um…I mean proof of reincarnation.

How can they find proof of the grue? They look around and find something that might be consistent with proof of a grue. None of evidence that they find will invalidate proof of the grue. So they go on and on and on complaining mountains of data, with some confirmation bias, that has some very weak support o the possibility of the grue. Sound like anyone we know? Sound like what reincarnation researchers are doing? Can you see why there is not going to be some specific proof that prove the grue?

What evidence would be sufficient to prove the grue? Answer that, I think you will have your answer to your question of what evidence would be sufficient to prove reincarnation. (We must assume that, like reincarnation, the grue is a being or process that cannot be detected by any empirical means.)

So, have a go. What evidence would be sufficient to prove the grue?
 
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Great posts by the way, DA.
Thanks. And the post above should say “compiling mountains of data” and not “complaining mountains of data” (thanks, spellchecker!) although the latter is not terribly off target.

( I can't seem to be able to edit my above posts although I see that there are some words missing and other errors. I expect everyone can still get the drift. Sorry.).
 
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Reincarnation researchers have no basis for their belief: no evidence, no phenomenon, no theory, not even a definition.

You are totally wrong. Read http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_11_4_almeder.pdf

And Carl Sagan wrote:

At the time of writing, there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation. I pick these claims not because I think they’re likely to be valid (I don’t), but as examples of contentions that might be true. They have at least some, although still dubious, experimental support. Of course, I could be wrong.

-The Demon Haunted World.
 
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate
Reincarnation researchers have no basis for their belief: no evidence, no phenomenon, no theory, not even a definition.
You are totally wrong. Read http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_11_4_almeder.pdf

And Carl Sagan wrote:
(snip)

I too think it's wrong, for different reasons that I outlined in this post. People aren't just randomly, unemotionally, casually making up reincarnation experiences, any more than they're randomly making up the experience of feeling a dowsing rod move or hearing voices or whatever. It seems real to them.

There are too many similar types of reincarnation anecdotes reported, not to believe that something consistent is going on in the brain.

The mistake that most people make, I think (and which is made in the link above), is missing the third option, besides the usual two of paranormal survival of the soul and simple fraud or just wrongness.

The third option is that similar cases are an artifact of some real neurological activity happening in the brain, just like the sensation of dowsing or the sensation of hearing voices. The dowsing or the voices or the reincarnation aren't real, but the sensation of reincarnation is caused by some real neurological situation related to deja vu, savantism or some combination.

I'd find an investigation of that far more interesting than arguing on the reincarnationists' paranormal playing field that "souls survive" vs. "no they don't."
 
We've done the studies.

And these studies were published... where?

Carl Sagan was wrong.

Sam Harris too?

My views on the paranormal: ESP, reincarnation, etc.:

My position on the paranormal is this: While there have been many frauds in the history of parapsychology, I believe that this field of study has been unfairly stigmatized. If some experimental psychologists want to spend their days studying telepathy, or the effects of prayer, I will be interested to know what they find out. And if it is true that toddlers occasionally start speaking in ancient languages (as Ian Stevenson alleges), I would like to know about it. However, I have not spent any time attempting to authenticate the data put forward in books like Dean Radin’s The Conscious Universe or Ian Stevenson’s 20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation. The fact that I have not spent any time on this should suggest how worthy of my time I think such a project would be. Still, I found these books interesting, and I cannot categorically dismiss their contents in the way that I can dismiss the claims of religious dogmatists. (Here, I am making a point about gradations of certainty: can I say for certain that a century of experimentation proves that telepathy doesn’t exist? No. It seems to me that reasonable people can disagree about the data. Can I say for certain that the Bible and the Koran show every sign of having been written by ignorant mortals? Yes. And this is the only certainty one needs to dismiss the God of Abraham as a creature of fiction.)


Source: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/
 
Oooo , opinions of people who are not referencing the source material but merely assert a feeling.

That an $1.50 will buy you coffee at Dutch Brothers.
 
And these studies were published... where?
In seventh-rate journals everywhere. And then torn into tiny shreds because the standards of evidence were insufficient for a remedial pre-school show-and-tell class.

Sam Harris too?
Oh, certainly. If I allow for Carl Sagan to be in error (granted that he posited this as a possiblity himself), then I'm certainly willing to say that Sam Harris is wrong too.

Not that Harris doesn't say that there is any substance to the paranormal, merely that the field has been unfairly stigmatized. On the contrary, the field has been given far too much leeway for bias, incompetence and outright charlatanry, and has been one of the world's leading producers of these resources for decades.

Sam Harris said:
My views on the paranormal: ESP, reincarnation, etc.:

My position on the paranormal is this: While there have been many frauds in the history of parapsychology, I believe that this field of study has been unfairly stigmatized. If some experimental psychologists want to spend their days studying telepathy, or the effects of prayer, I will be interested to know what they find out. And if it is true that toddlers occasionally start speaking in ancient languages (as Ian Stevenson alleges), I would like to know about it. However, I have not spent any time attempting to authenticate the data put forward in books like Dean Radin’s The Conscious Universe or Ian Stevenson’s 20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation. The fact that I have not spent any time on this should suggest how worthy of my time I think such a project would be. Still, I found these books interesting, and I cannot categorically dismiss their contents in the way that I can dismiss the claims of religious dogmatists. (Here, I am making a point about gradations of certainty: can I say for certain that a century of experimentation proves that telepathy doesn’t exist? No. It seems to me that reasonable people can disagree about the data. Can I say for certain that the Bible and the Koran show every sign of having been written by ignorant mortals? Yes. And this is the only certainty one needs to dismiss the God of Abraham as a creature of fiction.)
Harris says that not having studied the data he cannot categorically dismiss those claims. Those who have studied the data can and do categorically dismiss those claims, because the claims are imply unsupported by the data.

Has the field of paranormal research been stigmatized? Sure.

Is this unfair? No. Paranormal research should, at this point, be given no more consideration than Flat-Earth research. It is an utter failure and a disgrace to almost all of those involved.
 
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