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What do you guys believe?

Please keep to the topic. And remember, the topic is not other members.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
mike3 said:
Actually true, proven conspiracies have indeed happened, but they've always been exposed and busted up. An enduring conspiracy persisting over decades or centuries is virtually impossible due to the law of probability: as long as there is some nonzero probability (which is every time) that someone will blow the whistle, then with enough people and enough time, it'll happen.
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This seems especially the case when the conspiracy centers around something exotic that holds the public fascination... the more people involved, the more likely one of them will want to make grillions talking about it on TV and writing a book. Some won't even care if the "enforcers" get them eventually, they'll be living large for as long as they can :)

Today on Good Morning America-- a man who claims he hired the second shooter!
 
First, hello. welcome to the forum.

Second, goodbye. I hope you will reconsider posting here.

Third. I have to say the evidence for that whole NWO/one-world-government thing is pretty weak. People have been talking abut it for over 35 years. I've seen some websites cite an executive order signed by J.F.Kennedy. The folks talking about the NWO taking away everyone's guns really don't get how hard it would be to round up all the guns in the U.S. Furthermore, as difficult a task as that it is, it will be even harder to round up all the guns in Holland - a country that has been invaded by an occupying force within living memory. The NWO would have to adopt a scorched earth policy and just write off every person and almost every building in the country.

But we respond to all claims, just show us the evidence. If it stands up to scrutiny, I will change my position and accept the claim of an international conspiracy to subjugate the world's population. And that is the primary difference between you and me: I can succinctly describe the evidence it would take to change my mind. - those warning of vast, powerful conspiracies are never able to do that.
 
I hope that gsm1988 does return so we can talk about those things. I'm really curious as to what it was that he/she thinks is so convincing about those subjects.
 
corbin said:
Reasons people believe in conspiracy theories:

-Policy in exact opposition to libertarian political ideals. Would expect to see a more random dispersal of policy if there wasn't an overarching ideology behind political decisions.

-Both political parties have, for the most part, identical policy. This implies something else affecting both.

-Sheer draconian nature of recently adopted/proposed policy (Patriot Act, New Deal, wiretapping, DARPA, existence of CIA/NSA, etc.) Loss of privacy, economic freedom, civil liberties, choices, etc.

-Mainstream media sources constantly and deliberately omitting important information that would surely get excellent ratings. (so profit motive can't be the explanation for the absence of such information) Proliferation of mind-numbing, utterly stupid entertainment financed by powerful groups.

-Conspiracy admitted and talked about at length by politicians, businessmen, thinktanks, etc.

-Government response to problems are ineffective/immoral and it is unlikely that government is unaware of the ineffective/immoral nature when any lowly person with a computer can be made aware. Basically, government incompetence is an invalid explanation for poor policy.

-Economic system benefits the few and the world economy has become increasingly monopolized by fewer and fewer multinational corporations. People wonder how so few can control so many - at the root, its done with the power of money.

-The things most of us consume, because they are made economically convenient, are almost invariably harmful to our health. Some things harmful to our health are understandable with no conspiracy necessary, but when the powerful, global corporations are always the suspects combined with the fact that creating toxic consumables is not originally economically viable. Basically, toxic consumables have been incentivized through subsidies, the FDA, and various other means.

-False flags with ample evidence

-All of the above in direct, precise opposition to what is taught in public schools and professed in the media.

-Its really not too hard to read the documents of secret societies. There are entire religions and belief systems that are truly stranger than fiction and answer the "why?" question for a grand conspiracy. Most of these the common person knows absolutely nothing about.

-Symbolism (related to the above point; exists in too great a quantity to be coincidence)

-The existence of internet shills. Visit godlikeproductions.com and maybe you'll see what I mean. Too important information on many sites gets sent down the memory hole...

-The existence of the more bizarre and patently false conspiracy theories like bigfoot, moon landing hoax, etc. are interestingly focused more upon by the paid-for mainstream because they are easy targets and serve to discredit conspiracy theories in general. Again, follow the money trail.

-Intermarriage between those in power in greater occurrence than what is accounted for by mere coincidence. Most politicians run in the same social circles and are related by blood.
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No, it’s because arrogant, self-important twats are intellectually impaired and emotionally juvenile.
 
Proliferation of mind-numbing, utterly stupid entertainment financed by powerful groups.
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Felt like focusing on this one again-- both popular entertainment and "modern art" seem to be frequent targets of conspiracy theories and political shills--no matter what agenda is being supposed, somehow the promotion of culture the theorist doesn't like is part of the plan. So... that's appealing, not only are people who differ from your taste WRONG, the material itself is actually EVIL.
 
gnome said:
Felt like focusing on this one again-- both popular entertainment and "modern art" seem to be frequent targets of conspiracy theories and political shills--no matter what agenda is being supposed, somehow the promotion of culture the theorist doesn't like is part of the plan. So... that's appealing, not only are people who differ from your taste WRONG, the material itself is actually EVIL.
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Clearly, they've got a point. Two and a Half Men, Roseanne Barr, Jesse Ventura, not to mention ol' leatherlungs AJ himself, all surely qualify as "mind-numbing, utterly stupid entertainment".
 
gnome said:
Felt like focusing on this one again-- both popular entertainment and "modern art" seem to be frequent targets of conspiracy theories and political shills--no matter what agenda is being supposed, somehow the promotion of culture the theorist doesn't like is part of the plan. So... that's appealing, not only are people who differ from your taste WRONG, the material itself is actually EVIL.
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It's just more of the mentality where they try to establish themselves as "above it all."

I don't care for American Idol but I don't see it as nefarious.
 
gph said:
I-Politicians need money.
-Special interests are encouraged to contribute because of high returns on the dollar. They'd be derelict in their duties not to.
-Politicians pass laws that benefit their contributors as much as possible while still remaining viable for reelection.
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Do you think the above is somehow limited to the United States? What you listed is pretty much true for politics everywhere at pretty much every level.
 
An Atheist’s Creed
I believe in a purely material universe that conforms to naturalistic laws and principles.
I believe that the life we have is the only one we will have, that the mind and consciousness are inseparable from the brain, that we cease to exist in any conscious form when we die, and that it is therefore incumbent on us to enable each person to live their one life to the fullest.
I believe in the power of science and reason and rationality to further deepen our understanding of everything around us and to eventually overcome superstition and erase the petty divisions sown by religion, race, ethnicity, and nationality.
I am in awe of the beauty, vastness, and complexity of nature and the universe, and the fact that all arose purely by the working of natural laws.
I believe in the power of ideals such as peace and justice and shared humanity to inspire us to create a free and just world.
I believe in kindness, love, and the human spirit and their ability to overcome challenges and adversity and to create a better world.
I believe in the necessity for credible and objective evidence to sustain any belief and thus deny, because of the absence of such evidence, the existence of each and every aspect of the supernatural.
I refuse to bow, prostrate myself, or otherwise cower before the deities of any religion.
I am neither tempted by the fiction of heaven or any other form of eternal life nor fearful of the fiction of hell.
I choose to live the dignified and exhilarating life of a free-thinker, able to go wherever knowledge and curiosity takes me, without fear of contradicting any dogma.
 
From Ingersoll:

Then they say to me: "What do you propose? You have torn this down, what do you propose to give us in place of it?" I have not torn the good down. I have only endeavored to trample out the ignorant, cruel fires of hell. I do not tear away the passage: "God will be merciful to the merciful." I do not destroy the promise; "If you will forgive others, God will forgive you." I would not for anything blot out the faintest star that shines in the horizon of human despair, nor in the sky of human hope; but I will do what I can to get that infinite shadow out of the heart of man.
"What do you propose in place of this?"

Well, in the first place, I propose good fellowship -- good friends all around. No matter what we believe, shake hands and let it go. That is your opinion; this is mine: let us be friends. Science makes friends; religion, superstition, makes enemies. They say: Belief is important. I say: No, actions are important. Judge by deed, not by creed. Good fellowship -- good friends -- sincere men and women -- mutual forbearance, born of mutual respect. We have had too many of these solemn people. Whenever I see an exceedingly solemn man, I know he is an exceedingly stupid man. No man of any humor ever founded a religion -- never. Humor sees both sides. While reason is the holy light, humor carries the lantern, and the man with a keen sense of humor is preserved from the solemn stupidities of superstition. I like a man who has got good feeling for everybody; good fellowship. One man said to another:
"Will you take a glass of wine?"
"I do not drink."
"Will you smoke a cigar?"
"I do not smoke."
"Maybe you will chew something?"
"I do not chew."
"Let us eat some hay"
"I tell you I do not eat hay."
"Well, then, good-by, for you are no company for man or beast."
I believe in the gospel of cheerfulness, the gospel of Good Nature; the gospel of Good Health. Let us pay some attention to our bodies. Take care of our bodies, and our souls will take care of themselves. Good health! And I believe the time will come when the public thought will be so great and grand that it will be looked upon as infamous to perpetuate disease. I believe the time will come when man will not fill the future with consumption and insanity. I believe the time will come when we will study ourselves, and understand the laws of health and then we will say: We are under obligation to put the flags of health in the cheeks of our children. Even if I got to heaven, and had a harp, I would hate to look back upon my children and grandchildren, and see them diseased, deformed, crazed -- all suffering the penalties of crimes I had committed.
I believe in the gospel of Good Living. You can not make any god happy by fasting. Let us have good food, and let us have it well cooked -- and it is a thousand times better to know how to cook than it is to understand any theology in the world.
I believe in the gospel of good clothes; I believe in the gospel of good houses; in the gospel of water and soap. I believe in the gospel of intelligence; in the gospel of education. The schoolhouse is my cathedral. The universe is my Bible. I believe in that gospel of Justice, that we must reap what we sow.
I do not believe in forgiveness as it is preached by the church. We do not need the forgiveness of God, but of each other and of ourselves. If I rob Mr. Smith and God forgives me, how does that help Smith? If I, by slander, cover some poor girl with the leprosy of some imputed crime, and she withers away like a blighted flower and afterward I get the forgiveness of God, how does that help her? If there is another world, we have got to settle with the people we have wronged in this. No bankrupt court there. Every cent must be paid.
The Christians say, that among the ancient Jews, if you committed a crime you had to kill a sheep. Now they say "charge it." "Put it on the slate." It will not do. For every crime you commit you must answer to yourself and to the one you injure. And if you have ever clothed another with woe, as with a garment of pain, you will never be quite as happy as though you had not done that thing. No forgiveness by the gods. Eternal, inexorable, everlasting justice, so far as Nature is concerned. You must reap the result of your acts. Even when forgiven by the one you have injured, it is not as though the injury had not been done. That is what I believe in. And if it goes hard with me, I will stand it, and I will cling to my logic, and I will bear it like a man.
And I believe, too, in the gospel of Liberty, in giving to others what we claim for ourselves. I believe there is room everywhere for thought, and the more liberty you give away, the more you will have. In liberty extravagance is economy. Let us be just. Let us he generous to each other.
I believe in the gospel of Intelligence. That is the only lever capable of raising mankind. Intelligence must be the savior of this world. Humanity is the grand religion, and no God can put a man in hell in another world, who has made a little heaven in this. God cannot make a man miserable if that man has made somebody else happy. God cannot hate anybody who is capable of loving anybody. Humanity -- that word embraces all there is.
So I believe in this great gospel of Humanity.
"Ah! but," they say, "it will not do. You must believe." I say, No. My gospel of health will bring life. My gospel of intelligence, my gospel of good living, my gospel of good- fellowship will cover the world with happy homes. My doctrine will put carpets upon your floors, pictures upon your walls. My doctrine will put books upon your shelves, ideas in your minds. My doctrine will rid the world of the abnormal monsters born of ignorance and superstition. My doctrine will give us health, wealth and happiness. That is what I want. That is what I believe in. Give us intelligence. In a little while a man will find that he can not steal without robbing himself. He will find that he cannot murder without assassinating his own joy. He will find that every crime is a mistake. He will find that only that man carries the cross who does wrong, and that upon the man who does right the cross turns to wings that will bear him upward forever. He will find that even intelligent self-love embraces within its mighty arms all the human race.
"Oh," but they say to me, "You take away immortality." I do not. If we are immortal it is a fact in nature, and we are not indebted to priests for it, nor to bibles for it, and it cannot be destroyed by unbelief.
As long as we love we will hope to live, and when the one dies that we love we will say: "Oh, that we could meet again," and whether we do or not it will not be the work of theology. It will be a fact in nature. I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell.
One world at a time is my doctrine. It is said in this Testament, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof;" and I say: Sufficient unto each world is the evil thereof.
And suppose after all that death does end all. Next to eternal joy, next to being forever with those we love and those who have loved us, next to that, is to be wrapped in the dreamless drapery of eternal peace. Next to eternal life is eternal sleep. Upon the shadowy shore of death the sea of trouble casts no wave. Eyes that have been curtained by the everlasting dark, will never know again the burning touch of tears. Lips touched by eternal silence will never speak again the broken words of grief. Hearts of dust do not break. The dead do not weep. Within the tomb no veiled and weeping sorrow sits, and in the rayless gloom is crouched no shuddering fear.
I had rather think of those I have loved, and lost, as having returned to earth, as having become a part of the elemental wealth of the world -- I would rather think of them as unconscious dust, I would rather dream of them as gurgling in the streams, floating in the clouds, bursting in the foam of light upon the shores of worlds, I would rather think of them as the lost visions of a forgotten night, than to have even the faintest fear that their naked souls have been clutched by an orthodox god. I will leave my dead where nature leaves them. Whatever flower of hope springs up in my heart I will cherish, I will give it breath of sighs and rain of tears. But I can not believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain. I would rather that every god would destroy himself; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony.
I have made up my mind that if there is a God, he will be merciful to the merciful.
Upon that rock I stand. --
That he will not torture the forgiving. --
Upon that rock I stand. --
That every man should be true to himself, and that there is no world, no star, in which honesty is a crime.
Upon that rock I stand. --
The honest man, the good woman, the happy child, have nothing to fear, either in this world or the world to come.
Upon that rock I stand.
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Anyone bring out the Kevin Costner rant from Bull Durham yet?
 
The only part I think he's got wrong is the idea that no man of any humor founded a religion. Bokononism surely is an exception--it may count as a fiction, but think of how many fictions are eventually taken seriously.
 
Prometheus said:
If nothing changes administration after administration after administration, then how is it that we now find ourselves on a course that Bush put us on?
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Good point.

Back to the conspiracy v. conspiracy theory debate, here's a concrete example:

Conspiracy: "The CIA is selling drugs"

Source: Gary Webb

Corroboration provided by several other legitimate media sources (could list more here but don't want to derail myself).


Conspiracy Theory: "We never landed on the moon"

Source: some nut

Corroboration provided by other nuts.


See the difference?
 
Prometheus said:
And yet:



If nothing changes administration after administration after administration, then how is it that we now find ourselves on a course that Bush put us on?
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He made the downward spiral much worse. Like one last spree before leaving town. And the unelected neoconservatives still control our "democracy building" imperialist foreign policy.
 
Clayton Moore said:
He made the downward spiral much worse. Like one last spree before leaving town. And the unelected neoconservatives still control our "democracy building" imperialist foreign policy.
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I would be even less charitable in describing Bush's presidency than you are here. My comment was merely pointing out that two of gsm's statements are contradictory, not which--if either--of them is true.
 
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