What do you guys believe?

[ngc6205]

Surely if you are never willing challenge your core beliefs or examine the evidence that opposes them, you will never actually know if what you believe is real or just your imagination. Is it not better to try and find things that actually disprove your core beliefs than that avoid and ignore anything that doesn't agree with them, and as a result live in a world of fantasy rather than one of reality? If you hold your beliefs up to rigor and testing, then if they survive, you are the better for it, just as you are if they don't hold up.

That is so much better than the biting comment I was going to make. I'm glad I bit my tongue (or fingers) long enough for you to reply.

 

[dc1971]

...the push for world government...

Proof? Evidence? Research?

 

[gnome]

on "Refusing to give up one's core beliefs"...

If one believes in a value, or an ideal, or something else that is not a matter of checkable fact, hanging onto those beliefs in the face of criticism can be admirable.

But where it comes to believing whether something is a fact, there is no reason to take it personally... observing and acknowledging reality is no subtraction from who you are. Being willing to carefully review evidence and, if necessary, draw a conclusion other than what you came to the discussion with is not elitism, it is choosing knowledge over willful ignorance.

 

[Prometheus]

Thank you for your response Brainache. I guess that my problem with the skeptic community is that seemingly any explanation for happenings in the world that is outside of the "accepted" viewpoints is automatically dismissed as "conspiracy theories." For example, America has seen President after President, Congress after Congress, Senate after Senate, Republicans and Democrats take the majority countless times, yet nothing seems to ever change. <snip>

And yet:

....Obama has done absolutely nothing to change the course that Bush put this country on, and in my opinion has made things even worse in some ways....

If nothing changes administration after administration after administration, then how is it that we now find ourselves on a course that Bush put us on?

 

[Horatius]

I think s/he may be one of the woos who are so convinced of their own correctness that they expect others to accept anything they say without thought or consideration. They just can't handle opposition.

I think the problem with a lot of these guys is, they had a "moment of conversion", when they heard something that suddenly convinced them that they knew The Truth. And they just can't wrap their heads around the notion that we're not all awestruck as soon as they tell us the One True Fact that convinced them.

They instead insist that we're wilfully ignoring the One True Fact, or that we're in on it, or whatever.

And this applies to almost all the "big" controversies we see at JREF.


"Did you know there were three buildings that collapsed on 9/11?"

"Did you now there is mercury in vaccines?"

"Did you know that the flag the planted on the Moon was seen waving?"

"Did you know JFK's head went back and to the left?"

"Did you know that drugs from drug companies can actually be harmful?"

"Did you know the Federal Reserve controls the money supply?"

 

[little grey rabbit]

I'm more concerned about his future. i see this all the time in the Truther university students and graduates that I am in contact with. If you talk about this stuff, it's really going to limit where you can go socially and professionally. No one thinks this is clever or edgy talk. As a friend of mine once said on a different forum to a Truther who was disrupting our chats,


I have less faith the university system's ability to detect and weed out the kind of thinking gsm1988 is said to be producing. A much bigger problem for him is going to be the social ostracism this sort of belief system produces. If he's in a general arts program, he's not going to be writing about any of this for his classes. Although I regularly see Truthers and conspiracy folk who try and do this. If he does, that's the end of his degree plans. The folks over at his church may enjoy his exploring Holocaust Denial with him, but that's about as far as this is going to get him. But even if he's in science or engineering, he's not going to be able to chat about this stuff over coffee with his classmates or profs.

I don't think these folks have much sense of how these ideas really will have a negative effect on their lives.

Indeed, and just in case they are not aware, there are always folks eager to snoop out their personal details to make sure it does have a negative on their lives.

Still you will be surprised how soon the camoflague needed to survive becomes second nature. As one dissident wrote:

It is the same with the underground. If you are plunged into it suddenly and find yourself wearing a black mask and taking a solemn oath or signing your name in blood by the light of a red lantern, it is no doubt very frightening. But a man whom family life has long ago rejected, who lacks foundations on which to build a solid existence (even if he still wanted to), who has only his inner life, can learn one new shift after another, find hiding place after hiding place, make contacts which lead to new contacts, get used to code words in letters or at rendezvous, know some people only by nicknames and communicate with others through a chain of intermediaries, until he wakes up one morning and thinks: Well, I'll be damned! I've been underground all this time without realizing it!
It is mortifying, of course, to have to go underground not for the revolution but merely for the sake of history

 

[Scott Sommers]

You're dead on there Bunny. There's actually quite a bit of formal research on how employers use Facebook and Myspace to check up on employees and applicants for jobs. Although the issue of privacy is one of the most researched topics, it indicates that in fact, few people pay much attention to this. My personal experience with conspiracy theorists on Facebook is that they are so attention hungry, they pay little attention to issues of privacy. I regularly compare the information revealed by conspiracy theorist with other types of people. Conspiracy theorists are more likely to accept friendship request from strangers, have huge numbers of Facebook friends, post personal information about themselves, post phone numbers and addresses, and name others involved in their anti-NWO protests. Considering that 75% of the people I found in my survey were men, a disproportionate number of the women in these groups have revealing photographs of themselves posted on their Facebook accounts. One prominent female member of a 9/11 truth group protests every year in NY, speaks about 9/11 Truth in her classes at school, openly posts about all this in her real name on Facebook, and still imagines she can work as a crime scene investigator once she graduates.

So I do agree with you that people like our friend gsm should be more careful about revealing his whacked out ideas about the government murdering people. But it is not my experience that conspiracy theorists actually act as though they think this is a real concern.

 

[little grey rabbit]

You're dead on there Bunny. There's actually quite a bit of formal research on how employers use Facebook and Myspace to check up on employees and applicants for jobs. Although the issue of privacy is one of the most researched topics, it indicates that in fact, few people pay much attention to this. My personal experience with conspiracy theorists on Facebook is that they are so attention hungry, they pay little attention to issues of privacy. I regularly compare the information revealed by conspiracy theorist with other types of people. Conspiracy theorists are more likely to accept friendship request from strangers, have huge numbers of Facebook friends, post personal information about themselves, post phone numbers and addresses, and name others involved in their anti-NWO protests. Considering that 75% of the people I found in my survey were men, a disproportionate number of the women in these groups have revealing photographs of themselves posted on their Facebook accounts. One prominent female member of a 9/11 truth group protests every year in NY, speaks about 9/11 Truth in her classes at school, openly posts about all this in her real name on Facebook, and still imagines she can work as a crime scene investigator once she graduates.

So I do agree with you that people like our friend gsm should be more careful about revealing his whacked out ideas about the government murdering people. But it is not my experience that conspiracy theorists actually act as though they think this is a real concern.

You probably don't have a nose to distinguish between true Truthers and Illuminati moles. After all, the Illuminati would wish to encourage truthers to be very open with their personal details and what better way to do so than show their own moles being very open - and suffering no adverse consequences.

The loudest and most confident truthers are mostly Illuminati, the genuine ones are riven by doubt and bewilderment and tend towards lurking.

I expect your CSI friend will have a golden career ahead of her

 

[Scott Sommers]

Can I get paid for being an Illuminati mole? I keep looking for these jobs. There's a whole bunch of here who want one. Maybe you can help us out.

 

[Kid Eager]

Can I get paid for being an Illuminati mole? I keep looking for these jobs. There's a whole bunch of here who want one. Maybe you can help us out.

You're now ineligible. Rule no.1 is that we don't talk about wanting to be Illuminati moles...

 

[little grey rabbit]

Can I get paid for being an Illuminati mole? I keep looking for these jobs. There's a whole bunch of here who want one. Maybe you can help us out.

My name is Little Grey Rabbit, I'm here to help.

It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?

 

[Scott Sommers]

How about part-time? Is the pay worth doing it only a few hours a week? Do I need references?

 

[Andy_Ross]

You're now ineligible. Rule no.1 is that we don't talk about wanting to be Illuminati moles...

Rule no.2 is that we don't talk about wanting to be Illuminati moles...

Sorry, that's wrong Rule no.2 is No Smoking....

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My name is Little Grey Rabbit, I'm here to help.

It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?

Why does everybody here attack religion like that?

 

[corbin]

Reasons people believe in conspiracy theories:

-Policy in exact opposition to libertarian political ideals. Would expect to see a more random dispersal of policy if there wasn't an overarching ideology behind political decisions.

-Both political parties have, for the most part, identical policy. This implies something else affecting both.

-Sheer draconian nature of recently adopted/proposed policy (Patriot Act, New Deal, wiretapping, DARPA, existence of CIA/NSA, etc.) Loss of privacy, economic freedom, civil liberties, choices, etc.

-Mainstream media sources constantly and deliberately omitting important information that would surely get excellent ratings. (so profit motive can't be the explanation for the absence of such information) Proliferation of mind-numbing, utterly stupid entertainment financed by powerful groups.

-Conspiracy admitted and talked about at length by politicians, businessmen, thinktanks, etc.

-Government response to problems are ineffective/immoral and it is unlikely that government is unaware of the ineffective/immoral nature when any lowly person with a computer can be made aware. Basically, government incompetence is an invalid explanation for poor policy.

-Economic system benefits the few and the world economy has become increasingly monopolized by fewer and fewer multinational corporations. People wonder how so few can control so many - at the root, its done with the power of money.

-The things most of us consume, because they are made economically convenient, are almost invariably harmful to our health. Some things harmful to our health are understandable with no conspiracy necessary, but when the powerful, global corporations are always the suspects combined with the fact that creating toxic consumables is not originally economically viable. Basically, toxic consumables have been incentivized through subsidies, the FDA, and various other means.

-False flags with ample evidence

-All of the above in direct, precise opposition to what is taught in public schools and professed in the media.

-Its really not too hard to read the documents of secret societies. There are entire religions and belief systems that are truly stranger than fiction and answer the "why?" question for a grand conspiracy. Most of these the common person knows absolutely nothing about.

-Symbolism (related to the above point; exists in too great a quantity to be coincidence)

-The existence of internet shills. Visit godlikeproductions.com and maybe you'll see what I mean. Too important information on many sites gets sent down the memory hole...

-The existence of the more bizarre and patently false conspiracy theories like bigfoot, moon landing hoax, etc. are interestingly focused more upon by the paid-for mainstream because they are easy targets and serve to discredit conspiracy theories in general. Again, follow the money trail.

-Intermarriage between those in power in greater occurrence than what is accounted for by mere coincidence. Most politicians run in the same social circles and are related by blood.

 

[gnome]

Reasons people believe in conspiracy theories:

-Policy in exact opposition to libertarian political ideals. Would expect to see a more random dispersal of policy if there wasn't an overarching ideology behind political decisions.

Or it could be the case that, without any deliberate conspiracy, those wielding power are rarely interested in policies that reduce their power.

-Both political parties have, for the most part, identical policy. This implies something else affecting both.

Or it implies (as above) trends in any form of government such as pressure towards plutocracy. It's all we can do to hold it back even slightly, it requires no conspiracy to drift in that direction.

-Sheer draconian nature of recently adopted/proposed policy (Patriot Act, New Deal, wiretapping, DARPA, existence of CIA/NSA, etc.) Loss of privacy, economic freedom, civil liberties, choices, etc.

Can easily happen naturally just from citizen apathy combined with political ambition.

-Mainstream media sources constantly and deliberately omitting important information that would surely get excellent ratings. (so profit motive can't be the explanation for the absence of such information) Proliferation of mind-numbing, utterly stupid entertainment financed by powerful groups.

Examples are needed to evaluate this claim more fully, but if I were to speculate I'd say this "missing information" ranges between unreliable, uninteresting to their targeted readership (as tragic as that is), or embarrassing to their advertisers or owners. Again, no conspiracy required, just self-interest.

-Conspiracy admitted and talked about at length by politicians, businessmen, thinktanks, etc.

Examples needed for better evaluation.

-Government response to problems are ineffective/immoral and it is unlikely that government is unaware of the ineffective/immoral nature when any lowly person with a computer can be made aware. Basically, government incompetence is an invalid explanation for poor policy.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups, or (I shall add myself) the stupidity of powerful people in groups.

I wish I could believe that power can be expected to correspond with competence, but I've yet to find good reason to think so.

-Economic system benefits the few and the world economy has become increasingly monopolized by fewer and fewer multinational corporations. People wonder how so few can control so many - at the root, its done with the power of money.

That those with money have undue influence is well known... and that such interests desire further consolidation is also clear. I'm not sure where such requires a conspiracy, since without any collaboration they may behave just the same manner.

-The things most of us consume, because they are made economically convenient, are almost invariably harmful to our health. Some things harmful to our health are understandable with no conspiracy necessary, but when the powerful, global corporations are always the suspects combined with the fact that creating toxic consumables is not originally economically viable. Basically, toxic consumables have been incentivized through subsidies, the FDA, and various other means.

Which toxic consumables, for example?

-False flags with ample evidence

Examples?

-All of the above in direct, precise opposition to what is taught in public schools and professed in the media.

And no other reason for getting bad information in schools and media, than deliberate conspiracy?

-Its really not too hard to read the documents of secret societies. There are entire religions and belief systems that are truly stranger than fiction and answer the "why?" question for a grand conspiracy. Most of these the common person knows absolutely nothing about.

So... because it doesn't have to make sense, it must exist because even nonsense could be the reason? I'm not sure I follow.

-Symbolism (related to the above point; exists in too great a quantity to be coincidence)

Symbolism is easy to find even among unrelated or only roughly related elements if you're looking for it.

-The existence of internet shills. Visit godlikeproductions.com and maybe you'll see what I mean. Too important information on many sites gets sent down the memory hole...

-The existence of the more bizarre and patently false conspiracy theories like bigfoot, moon landing hoax, etc. are interestingly focused more upon by the paid-for mainstream because they are easy targets and serve to discredit conspiracy theories in general. Again, follow the money trail.

I like this one--attention to bad conspiracy theories mean that the good ones must be true!

-Intermarriage between those in power in greater occurrence than what is accounted for by mere coincidence. Most politicians run in the same social circles and are related by blood.

Again, doesn't require comprehensive conspiracy, as demonstrated by your second sentence there. Money and power likes to marry money and power.

I do not dismiss these points as obviously false or unimportant--only show where they may fail to convince.

 

[Kid Eager]

Reasons people believe in conspiracy theories:

-Policy in exact opposition to libertarian political ideals. Would expect to see a more random dispersal of policy if there wasn't an overarching ideology behind political decisions.

-Both political parties have, for the most part, identical policy. This implies something else affecting both.

-Sheer draconian nature of recently adopted/proposed policy (Patriot Act, New Deal, wiretapping, DARPA, existence of CIA/NSA, etc.) Loss of privacy, economic freedom, civil liberties, choices, etc.

-Mainstream media sources constantly and deliberately omitting important information that would surely get excellent ratings. (so profit motive can't be the explanation for the absence of such information) Proliferation of mind-numbing, utterly stupid entertainment financed by powerful groups.

-Conspiracy admitted and talked about at length by politicians, businessmen, thinktanks, etc.

-Government response to problems are ineffective/immoral and it is unlikely that government is unaware of the ineffective/immoral nature when any lowly person with a computer can be made aware. Basically, government incompetence is an invalid explanation for poor policy.

-Economic system benefits the few and the world economy has become increasingly monopolized by fewer and fewer multinational corporations. People wonder how so few can control so many - at the root, its done with the power of money.

-The things most of us consume, because they are made economically convenient, are almost invariably harmful to our health. Some things harmful to our health are understandable with no conspiracy necessary, but when the powerful, global corporations are always the suspects combined with the fact that creating toxic consumables is not originally economically viable. Basically, toxic consumables have been incentivized through subsidies, the FDA, and various other means.

-False flags with ample evidence

-All of the above in direct, precise opposition to what is taught in public schools and professed in the media.

-Its really not too hard to read the documents of secret societies. There are entire religions and belief systems that are truly stranger than fiction and answer the "why?" question for a grand conspiracy. Most of these the common person knows absolutely nothing about.

-Symbolism (related to the above point; exists in too great a quantity to be coincidence)

-The existence of internet shills. Visit godlikeproductions.com and maybe you'll see what I mean. Too important information on many sites gets sent down the memory hole...

-The existence of the more bizarre and patently false conspiracy theories like bigfoot, moon landing hoax, etc. are interestingly focused more upon by the paid-for mainstream because they are easy targets and serve to discredit conspiracy theories in general. Again, follow the money trail.

-Intermarriage between those in power in greater occurrence than what is accounted for by mere coincidence. Most politicians run in the same social circles and are related by blood.

I think the above points would be more accurate were each prefaced with the phrase "a perception of". Of course, that's only my perception.

Continuing with my perception, conspiracy theories arise because people want some external cause to blame when things don't work/happen the way they "should". After all, it can't possibly be your fault, can it? THEY must have caused it to happen - and the fact that you can't see them only proves how deep the conspiracy is.

We no longer have the comfort of being able to blame devils, witches, pixies, the Templars or the Masons (damn Masons.... ), so now we have to find some other THEY...

Your political party gets its backside kicked at the election? Blame the UN, Illuminati, the NWO, but don't dare suggest their policies sucked, the candidates were intellectual pygmies, or that the party is so fringe that only a minority of a minority can see value in their cause.

A great scientific achievement is revealed? That can't be right - "everybody" said that was impossible. It must a a conspiracy to fake it and trick everybody so that *somebody* looks good. All the evidence of it having happened is fake, any anything that maybe possibly might support this position is fine by me.

Bah. My period of perception has reached its end.

 

[gnome]

Or... an anticipated or popularly hoped for scientific achievement eludes practicality? It really does work and there's a conspiracy to suppress it

 

[Travis]

It's cute when they are at that age when they think being obstinate is a positive trait.

By "cute" I mean unimaginably annoying.

 

[mike3]

Thank you for your response Brainache. I guess that my problem with the skeptic community is that seemingly any explanation for happenings in the world that is outside of the "accepted" viewpoints is automatically dismissed as "conspiracy theories." For example, America has seen President after President, Congress after Congress, Senate after Senate, Republicans and Democrats take the majority countless times, yet nothing seems to ever change. The Bush and Obama presidencies are a great example. Obama has done absolutely nothing to change the course that Bush put this country on, and in my opinion has made things even worse in some ways. Despite the fact that nothing ever seems to change, people who believe that there is more than meets the eye in regards to events in the world are constantly derided and ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists", and are excluded from mainstream, "serious" conversation of the world's events. Why is this? I can understand skepticism when it comes to the 9/11 Truth movement, which I believe goes way too far sometimes, but some so-called conspiracies are not so crazy and are in fact true.

Actually true, proven conspiracies have indeed happened, but they've always been exposed and busted up. An enduring conspiracy persisting over decades or centuries is virtually impossible due to the law of probability: as long as there is some nonzero probability (which is every time) that someone will blow the whistle, then with enough people and enough time, it'll happen.

More likely, the reasons there are no change is the way the political system works. It presents big difficulties for anyone who threatens to do something maverick. E.g. they might not get voted in, or they might not be able to get enough campaign money, and even if they do get in there will be objectors, and so on...