What did Democrats do wrong?

[Emily's Cat]

Vote blue no matter who was a failed attempt at getting fickle left voters to ...vote blue, even if their unicorn candidate wasn't on the ballot. That it failed demonstrates that Dems are less tribal.

Are you assuming that the only reason Harris lost was becauses extreme far left citizens voted for Trump? Or that they simply didn't vote and that there are enough of them to have made a difference?

I still think it's because some of the core slogans and positions taken by the democratic party are less palatable to the average person than you think they are. No matter how much finger wagging you do, most females don't want males in our showers or gyms or prisons or sports. Most citizens want voter ID and stronger election safeguards - partly so we can close loopholes that exist in some states, but also so that both parties can stfu about it and we can just get on with our lives. And most citizens want immigration laws to be enforced, and think that sanctuary cities that protect illegal entrants are prioritizing the interests of foreigners above the needs and interests of citizens. And most people thought that allowing massive prolonged riots with a considerable amount of violence to go on while law-abiding citizens were repeatedly told to stay home and socially distance was tone deaf and ill-advised no matter how much we might agree with the sentiment behind them. Most people - including the majority of urban PoCs thought that "defund the police" was a horrific idea.

These aren't crazy evil bigoted views. These are reasonable views that reflect commonly shared values - and democrats under Biden failed to address them in a meaningful way. For all of the claims of democrats being for the working class and for minorities etc., a whole lot of the actions of democratic local and national leaders, as well as their voting base, seem more catered to addressing the deeply embedded guilt of middle class white females.

Trump sucks. But Dems really need to do more than just be "not Trump". We already did the "Not Trump" gambit with Biden in 2020, and it didn't work out all that well.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ummm... go back and look at what i wrote. I admitted that someone who marches under a Hamas flag and chants "death to israel" can at least be considered a terrorist supporter. (The only reason they might not be classified a 'terrorist' is that, depending on how you define 'terrorist', a person might think it involves actually committing violent attacks. But, as I said, they are still a "terrorist supporter".)

Fair point, I misread. I suppose it's good to know that you believe that a rather large portion of democrats are terrorist supporters.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Given the fact that the entire republican party (at least at the federal level) is composed pretty much entirely of either:
- Trump bootlickers
- cowards who will do very little to actually block Trump
then you can assume that at this point in time, Trump IS the be-all-end-all of the republican party

Given that the entire democratic party seemed to back Biden even when it was patently obvious that they were no longer cognitively capable of leading the country, I'm not sure your argument is as solid as you think it is. Partisanship works that way. Why would you expect partisan republicans to actively block a republican president?

The current republican party is authoritarian/fascist in nature. (Whether it is because they believe in the MAGA agenda or whether they are too cowardly to oppose him, the result is the same.) I think it reflects badly on a republican voter if they look at the 2 main options and think "this pro-fascist republican party better represents my values than the democrats, who may want higher taxes but still respect democracy".

I disagree. I don't think they're authoritarian fascists in nature - in fact, I think that's a narrative that a whole lot of people have been fed on purpose, specifically to incite antipathy and hatred and incite a civil war.

You think he's going to "go away" in the future?

Yes. 8 years, that's it.

Fine. Vote for the republicans in the future, AFTER Trump has gone and republicans have gained some sort of sense of rationality. Anyone who votes for them NOW (as long as they have the stench of Trump) can be seen as a fascist-lover.

****IF**** republicans put forth a candidate that actually aligns well with my values, then I ****might**** vote for them. But seeing as the last republican I voted for was W. Bush, I don't think it's particularly likely. Possible, sure. But not likely.

Seriously, you people keep treating me like I'm a die-hard republican and it's annoying. It leads you to make comments like this.

I think it is an entirely rational expectation to think republicans SHOULD vote for any democrat, because Trump is just that bad. He's a fascist. He called Nazis "fine people". He is a convicted felon who is openly taking bribes at this point. That is something that every voter (republican, democrat, or independent) should vote against, regardless of who the democrats have as the leader.

It might be irrational to think republicans WILL vote democrat. Which is unfortunate.

I think it's insane of you to expect partisan republicans to vote for democrats based on narrative rhetoric that democrats have pushed to enrage a democratic base.

I could have sworn that in the last election, Harris and the Democrats actually put forward real, concrete policy positions and plans, you know, stuff that meant more than just "we're not Trump". (Yes, they do sometimes point out differences between their policies and Trump's, but most of the stuff stands alone.)

See: https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2024-democratic-party-platform

Of course, since Trump is a fascist who is basically destroying democracy in America, then "we're not Trump" SHOULD be a compelling argument, at least for people who don't want to see the US become fascist. (Which I know isn't you, because you have admitted you are A-Ok with fascism in America.)

This kind of ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ is not going to win democrats votes. How hard is it to just not lie about people that you need to convince to vote for your preferred candidate? Are you just incapable of biting your tongue and treating people with basic decency, or are you actually convinced that name calling and shaming and bullying is a winning tactic?

 

[dirtywick]

You're not wrong... but you might also want to consider that democrats handed them a gift-wrapped, pre-sloganed set of items to use. Bit of an own goal.

yeah i guess. i think the propaganda network is going to twist anything they do into a slogan or catch phrase, or invent one or redefine it or just plain old lie. it's just what they do.

 

[dirtywick]

not even credible accusations of child sex trafficking and a factual attempt at overthrowing democracy have shaken the support of the entire republican establishment and a huge chunk of the electorate. the dems dropped biden when he seemed too old to lead, maybe a little later than they should have, maybe not. but they did. and now trump is just as demented on top of the sex trafficking and election fraud.

and how much has he stolen?

it's not even in the same universe

 

[bruto]

Yep, because poop on the floor is clearly much, much, much worse than setting a building on fire with people locked inside it.

There was no comparison stated or implied in my statement. You can't just dismiss something as not happening because it wasn't the worst thing ever to happen.

 

[dirtywick]

see, i brought up earlier that jan 6 was part of a broader election fraud plot, didn't really get an acknowledgement of that. and then that part keeps getting skipped like the point was never raised, but it's actually really important.

 

[arthwollipot]

not even credible accusations of child sex trafficking and a factual attempt at overthrowing democracy have shaken the support of the entire republican establishment and a huge chunk of the electorate. the dems dropped biden when he seemed too old to lead, maybe a little later than they should have, maybe not. but they did. and now trump is just as demented on top of the sex trafficking and election fraud.

and how much has he stolen?

it's not even in the same universe

Remember when Dan Quayle was pilloried for spelling a word wrong?

 

[dirtywick]

Remember when Dan Quayle was pilloried for spelling a word wrong?

i remember his goofus tank helmet. the guy was a nerd. but maybe he was a decent guy.

 

[Resume]

i remember his goofus tank helmet. the guy was a nerd. but maybe he was a decent guy.

That wasn't Quayle, that was Dukakis.

 

[dirtywick]

oh lol my bad

 

[Emily's Cat]

yeah i guess. i think the propaganda network is going to twist anything they do into a slogan or catch phrase, or invent one or redefine it or just plain old lie. it's just what they do.

Propaganda goes both ways, just saying. But seriously "Defund the Police" and "ACAB" and "TWAW" came pre-packaged with no narrative spin needed, really.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There was no comparison stated or implied in my statement. You can't just dismiss something as not happening because it wasn't the worst thing ever to happen.

I didn't dismiss it as not happening.

 

[Emily's Cat]

see, i brought up earlier that jan 6 was part of a broader election fraud plot, didn't really get an acknowledgement of that. and then that part keeps getting skipped like the point was never raised, but it's actually really important.

I ignore it because it's fraught with a ton of narrative framing and interpretation and mind reading. There's absolutely no possible way to discuss it, because many people in this thread believe it so deeply and concretely that absolutely nothing would reduce their faith in it. For all intents, this ends up being "that's just what a fraud plotter would say". Lack of evidence in support of the view is read as proof that the view is true. Evidence to the contrary is read as evidence of subterfuge hiding the secret coded message underneath. It's not worth the finger fatigue to debate whether or not someone's interpretation of what was really meant underneath what was said is true or whether what was said was what was meant, let alone the bother involved in investigating how much context has been removed in order to support this or that insinuation.

 

[dirtywick]

I ignore it because it's fraught with a ton of narrative framing and interpretation and mind reading. There's absolutely no possible way to discuss it, because many people in this thread believe it so deeply and concretely that absolutely nothing would reduce their faith in it. For all intents, this ends up being "that's just what a fraud plotter would say". Lack of evidence in support of the view is read as proof that the view is true. Evidence to the contrary is read as evidence of subterfuge hiding the secret coded message underneath. It's not worth the finger fatigue to debate whether or not someone's interpretation of what was really meant underneath what was said is true or whether what was said was what was meant, let alone the bother involved in investigating how much context has been removed in order to support this or that insinuation.

it's not any of that. jack smith testified to it, he laid the whole thing out in hours of testimony. nobody even disputed his accounting.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

That wasn't Quayle, that was Dukakis.

View attachment 69099

Dukakis rode in a tank. Quayle held an rpg the wrong way. Checks out.

 

[dirtywick]

not even credible accusations of child sex trafficking and a factual attempt at overthrowing democracy have shaken the support of the entire republican establishment and a huge chunk of the electorate. the dems dropped biden when he seemed too old to lead, maybe a little later than they should have, maybe not. but they did. and now trump is just as demented on top of the sex trafficking and election fraud.

and how much has he stolen?

it's not even in the same universe

as far as how much he's stolen, how about $10b, is that enough? isn't just that enough? not even everything he's stolen before that. let's not even talk about that. he's just like, i'm taking $10b and doing what i want with it. ok.

Trump vows $10 billion from U.S. for his Board of Peace as he leans into global role

President Donald Trump expressed optimism for Gaza at Thursday's first meeting of the Board of Peace, which focused on the next steps in the fragile ceasefire.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[lobosrul5]

Have you considered that to republican voters... the democrats seem like the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ insane party?

I get that they don't seem that way to you, I fully understand that. Do you understand the the opposite is also true?

Oh I know it, and its because their worldview is warped beyond all reason. I was a registered Republican until 2008. Independent since then.

 

[bruto]

oh lol my bad

Quayle was the potatoe man, as I recall. And the obscene South American souvenir. He seems pretty tame by today's standards. A mere idiot, if he showed up in the oval office he'd be the smartest person in the room.

e.t.a. Also famous for getting all upset about the TV character Murphy Brown eroding America's family values. I note also that he's remained a Trump loyalist. So I might have to take back my equivocal approval of him as being just ordinarily stupid. Yea, so ◊◊◊◊ him anyway.

 

[wareyin]

Are you assuming that the only reason Harris lost was becauses extreme far left citizens voted for Trump? Or that they simply didn't vote and that there are enough of them to have made a difference?

No. No one thinks there is only one reason she lost, and the extreme far left by and large weren't going to vote for Trump. I also know that in the 6 million or so fewer people that voted Dem in 2024 vs 2020, a very large percentage of them fit the far left demographics.

I still think it's because some of the core slogans and positions taken by the democratic party are less palatable to the average person than you think they are. No matter how much finger wagging you do, most females don't want males in our showers or gyms or prisons or sports. Most citizens want voter ID and stronger election safeguards - partly so we can close loopholes that exist in some states, but also so that both parties can stfu about it and we can just get on with our lives. And most citizens want immigration laws to be enforced, and think that sanctuary cities that protect illegal entrants are prioritizing the interests of foreigners above the needs and interests of citizens. And most people thought that allowing massive prolonged riots with a considerable amount of violence to go on while law-abiding citizens were repeatedly told to stay home and socially distance was tone deaf and ill-advised no matter how much we might agree with the sentiment behind them. Most people - including the majority of urban PoCs thought that "defund the police" was a horrific idea.

If most people believe in Republican propaganda, that just tells us that the Republican propaganda machine is more effective. If anyone believes, for instance, that after Republicans enact draconian "show your papers" laws they will just stop there, that person is a gullible fool who has paid zero attention to the laws Republicans are attempting to enact at this very moment.

These aren't crazy evil bigoted views. These are reasonable views that reflect commonly shared values - and democrats under Biden failed to address them in a meaningful way. For all of the claims of democrats being for the working class and for minorities etc., a whole lot of the actions of democratic local and national leaders, as well as their voting base, seem more catered to addressing the deeply embedded guilt of middle class white females.

Trump sucks. But Dems really need to do more than just be "not Trump". We already did the "Not Trump" gambit with Biden in 2020, and it didn't work out all that well.

Refusing to recognize trans people as trans is bigoted. Full stop. Pretending that elections are not secure or that a poll tax disguised as voter ID will make them more secure is crazy, uniformed, and as it is based on the idea that them brown people are voting in the wrong party, it's bigoted as well. Pretending that immigration laws weren't being enforced under Biden? Crazy. Imagining that sanctuary cities are treating them damn furriners better than us white folk...er citizens? Bigoted, and crazy.