What did Democrats do wrong?

[Thermal]

Appease China? No, Trump isn't trying to appease China. Not sure where you got that from.

From your subtext. "We have to side with the globally aggressive dictators because we want to make nice with the other globally aggressive dictators". Stripped of excuses, you're saying we just want to be on the globally aggressive dictators' side.

Although you make a fair point that no one seems to want to be the one kicking this particular hornets nest. Not the previous administration, not Europe, nobody. That's because if Putin gets pissed off enough, it will.likely be WW3, and the odds are not bad that he would do so.

But the solution cannot be to fondle Putin's balls and tell Zelensky to let him win (while tossing the US his resources to insure his country never recovers). That just encourages more Russian ◊◊◊◊, with the belief that the US has his back.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

We sided with Stalin.

But not when he invaded Poland or Finland. That is more comparable to Trump's posture relative to Putin. When China invades Siberia and Putin needs our help, we can start making analogies to Lend-Lease.

 

[theprestige]

nm; wrong thread

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Yes, actually there is. China. China is a bigger threat than Russia. A much bigger threat.

Russia is a client state of China.
When you oppose Russia in Ukraine, you are opposing China and prevent its further influence in the region.

You would have to be a complete idiot to think that Russia would ever join the US in a pact against China.

 

[Ziggurat]

From your subtext. "We have to side with the globally aggressive dictators because we want to make nice with the other globally aggressive dictators".

No. China is the bigger threat. We want to corner and isolate China, not make nice with them. Making nice with Russia (a lesser threat) would help isolate China.

Now, you might argue that it's not worth making nice with Russia in order to isolate China. But that's a very different argument than the one you're making, which is based on a complete misunderstanding of what I'm saying.

Although you make a fair point that no one seems to want to be the one kicking this particular hornets nest. Not the previous administration, not Europe, nobody. That's because if Putin gets pissed off enough, it will.likely be WW3, and the odds are not bad that he would do so.

This is precisely the calculus at play. And again, one might argue that Putin wouldn't go nuclear even if we went all in on helping Ukraine drive out Russia. That seems to be theprestige's position. But it doesn't matter, since nobody will actually take that risk. So the actual available options are to just let the war drag on for years and years, or find a negotiated settlement. I'm not seeing anyone make a serious argument for a better way to get a negotiated settlement with Russia, or even why years and years of more meat grinder war is better.

 

[theprestige]

No. China is the bigger threat. We want to corner and isolate China, not make nice with them. Making nice with Russia (a lesser threat) would help isolate China.

Further isolating Russia would also help isolate China. But catch me in the Ukraine war thread, if you'd like to hear more about how Trump is being a gargantuan cockmongler on this issue. Strictly speaking, this thread is about the Democrats being cockmonglers (not that there's anything wrong with that; the Democrats never do anything wrong).

 

[Ziggurat]

Russia is a client state of China.

True. And losing Russia as a client would hurt China.

When you oppose Russia in Ukraine, you are opposing China and prevent its further influence in the region

False. China doesn't give a ◊◊◊◊ about what happens in Ukraine. The outcome is essentially irrelevant to them. To the extent that they stand to gain anything, it's by maintaining the conflict, not in either a Russian defeat or victory.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You recall correctly, married with whelps. And I do ask them about their interests for a few reasons: I want to know what's going on in their lives and interests, and I love to see them get excited about what they are passionate about, and mostly because I love them all with my entire being, so what is important to them is important to me, passively or actively.

As an aside, none of them give a flying ◊◊◊◊ about any of my interests that don't overlap theirs. I don't entirely blame them, but that's another story.

The difference with the schmoozer is motivation. The schmoozer is working an alliance, not sharing in my life. Because I am fascinated with psychological manipulation (in all its forms and intensities), that's a hard line distinction.

YMMV

I don't think it's psychological manipulation in general. Sure, it can be I guess, but most of the time I don't think it is. One of my staff has a dog that ended up needing eye surgery - I ask how the pupster is doing, do they still need drops every couple of hours, when is their next check up, when do they get the cone off? I don't personally care... but my employee cares deeply about their two dogs, they're their kids essentially. I care that my employee feels valued, and feels that I care about them as a whole person not just as staff. I'm not manipulating them - I'm showing an interest and demonstrating that I value them. Doesn't mean I'm going to run out and buy a dog. When I ask my exec about their vineyard, they know I don't drink wine, but I'm also pretty sure they don't think I'm trying to psychologically manipulate them. I have a good relationship with them, and remembering their hobbies and being able to make small talk about things they're passionate about is part of having that good relationship.

 

[Emily's Cat]

My mistake, then. I thought I remembered you saying you were what we would call a compassionate conservative.

Nah, I've always been independent. There's a bumper sticker out there that has captured my views pretty well: I want gay married couples to be able to defend their marijuana farms with guns. I'm a classical liberal, bordering on constitutionalist. About the only "conservative" views I hold are 1) don't ◊◊◊◊ with my constitutional rights and that includes the 2nd, and 2) don't waste my hard earned money.

 

[Random]

True. And losing Russia as a client would hurt China.

False. China doesn't give a ◊◊◊◊ about what happens in Ukraine. The outcome is essentially irrelevant to them. To the extent that they stand to gain anything, it's by maintaining the conflict, not in either a Russian defeat or victory.

China might not care about Ukraine, but they do care about Taiwan. The US selling out a small democratic country to make friends with a bigger invader might not send the message to China you are looking for.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So now you disagree with Zig?

I frequently disagree with Zig. Why do you think this needs saying?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I haven't seen the Zelensky thing, I don't have an opinion on that. I do have an opinion on this:

I think.we have a massive interest in one of our enemies getting aggro on the NATO border.

I think we *had* an interest. At this point, we pretty well know how effective Russia *isn't*. We've got a fairly good understanding of their capabilities... and yeah... they don't really rate a lot of interest any more. I'm not making light of the war... but let's be honest - Ukraine is not exactly a technological and military powerhouse, but they've been holding their own against Russia for three (?) years now. And Russia is supposedly a world superpower. It's pretty clear that they're not a material threat to the US.

Unless they get all nuclear, and well, that's a different issue altogether.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, actually there is. China. China is a bigger threat than Russia. A much bigger threat.

Agreed. Although, I'm not sure they're a bigger military threat. Lots of paper tigers when it comes to military capability. That said, much much bigger threat in terms of ability to actually harm us as a nation via economic disruption. Not just in terms of our reliance on good sourced out of China, but also in terms of how much they could disrupt global trade, pharmaceutical supply chain, and a whole lot of basic industrial materials.

 

[Thermal]

I haven't seen the Zelensky thing, I don't have an opinion on that. I do have an opinion on this:



I think we *had* an interest. At this point, we pretty well know how effective Russia *isn't*. We've got a fairly good understanding of their capabilities... and yeah... they don't really rate a lot of interest any more. I'm not making light of the war... but let's be honest - Ukraine is not exactly a technological and military powerhouse, but they've been holding their own against Russia for three (?) years now. And Russia is supposedly a world superpower. It's pretty clear that they're not a material threat to the US.

Zelensky is holding his own, as military theorists The Beatles opined, with a little help from his friends. Without Western aid, he likely would have knuckled under long ago. And Russia is likely not trying to level the territory they are invading. Why scorch the earth you are stealing?

Unless they get all nuclear, and well, that's a different issue all together

And let's face it: there comes a point where Putin will go gonzo. It's likely why the planet is playing hot potato and hoping for somebody else's country to deal with this.

Eta: and watch the meeting. It's stunning. You've never seen two American politicians look like a bigger pair of ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

 

[plague311]

Zelensky is holding his own, as military theorists The Beatles opined, with a little help from his friends. Without Western aid, he likely would have knuckled under long ago. And Russia is likely not trying to level the territory they are invading. Why scorch the earth you are stealing?

Uhm, about that...Russia absolutely is leveling Ukraine. Without any regard or remorse they are flattening everything in their way.

And let's face it: there comes a point where Putin will go gonzo. It's likely why the planet is playing hot potato and hoping for somebody else's country to deal with this.

Eta: and watch the meeting. It's stunning. You've never seen two American politicians look like a bigger pair of ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

I have no reason to think Putin wouldn't drop a tactical nuke in Ukraine. Especially if Ukraine starts holding their own without the US.

 

[Thermal]

Agreed. Although, I'm not sure they're a bigger military threat. Lots of paper tigers when it comes to military capability. That said, much much bigger threat in terms of ability to actually harm us as a nation via economic disruption. Not just in terms of our reliance on good sourced out of China, but also in terms of how much they could disrupt global trade, pharmaceutical supply chain, and a whole lot of basic industrial materials.

You're claiming both Russia and China are militarily weak. We have the most powerful military on the planet and in history.

So why aren't we calling all the shots? Why is Trump licking Putin's...boots?

 

[Thermal]

Uhm, about that...Russia absolutely is leveling Ukraine. Without any regard or remorse they are flattening everything in their way.

Well, yeah, conventionally. But not making Kyev glow in the dark, just yet.

I have no reason to think Putin wouldn't drop a tactical nuke in Ukraine. Especially if Ukraine starts holding their own without the US.

Maybe. But that would start something that I don't think even Putin wants.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're claiming both Russia and China are militarily weak. We have the most powerful military on the planet and in history.

Different flavors of claim. Russia at least used to be a military peer, and they've been saying they're our peer for decades... and now we've seen that they demonstrably are not our peer. We've suspect that they've slipped behind in terms of technology and quality, but it's only been during this conflict with Ukraine that we've seen their newest shiniest in action. China on the other hand has never actually been our military peer, and we know damned good and well that most of their claims with respect to their capabilities are smoke and mirrors.

Everyone lies about their military capability.

We've known that China was lying for my entire life, and claiming that they can do a whole lot more than they actually can.

For most of my life, we thought Russia was lying and not disclosing their full capability dyring the cold war, and could do more than they let on. In the last few decades, we knew they were slipping... but they've slipped further than we thought and it turns out the weren't withholding as much as we assumed.

We lie by only disclosing a very small portion of our actual power. We play our cards close to the vest.

So why aren't we calling all the shots?

If we actively get involved in a conflict against an actual nation (as opposed to terrorist organizations), that's going to drag the entire world into it. If we go in, all our allies are compelled to join in... and if they join in all of their enemies will come in and then we get WW3. Us not calling the shots, not actively engaging, is exactly where we need to be: provide some degree of aid to our allies, or in opposition to our enemies... but not directly intervening.

Why is Trump licking Putin's...boots?

Don't ask me, I don't know have any more insight than anyone else here. About the only thing I have going is that I don't immediately assume malice.

 

[arthwollipot]

Does anyone actually think that meeting could have gone the other way? It was planned. Vance acted on cue, as did the guy with the wardrobe question. Trump was never going to help Ukraine, he's on Russia's side. What he was trying to do was provoke Zelensky into an actual real display of anger (I bet Trump was hoping he'd take a swing at Vance) and then use that as further excuse for siding with Russia. Since Zelensky isn't an idiot he didn't do that, but Trump and his minions are acting as if he did because that's what they had scripted. It was all a Trump stage-directed "reality" show, except the contestant didn't react as scripted and Trump's minions stupidly forgot that you can't edit live television.

You can, however, edit reality if you've got a cult of fools who believe anything they're told.

Remember how Zelensky took a big bite out of the White House's resident cat, Sprinkles? No? If Trump tweeted that it happened then about a third of the country would suddenly remember it.

And the jokey meme that I posted somewhere about how Zelenskyy was the only man in the room not wearing makeup was pointful as well. Trump and JD treated this from the outset as a TV appearance - a publicity stunt - as they always do, rather than a serious negotiation.

 

[dirtywick]

Why is Trump licking Putin's...boots?

well that, i think, is the million dollar question

why indeed