What did Democrats do wrong?

[3point14]

I'm pretty sure another thing the Democrats did wrong was assume that tu quoque would be a solid strategy for getting much-needed votes.

But they didn't employ that

You note that one side may have lost votes by insulting the other side.

Another poster notes that, in fact, both sides insulted the other side, therefore, perhaps, this is not the reason you're looking for.

This is not the fallacy you think it is.

 

[Abooga]

I´m Spanish and won´t pretend to know much about US politics, but if I had to take a guess I would try to draw from the European turn towards right wing parties, although I admit many things are different on the either side of the pond. Here in Spain I think the main issues (in the sense of optics) that the left has done a poor job at are:

-Immigration: Years and years denying there was a problem at all, calling anyone who said there should be some limits to immigration racists etc... And now it´s just impossible to hide it, the issues (increase of criminality etc.) are so evident (damning statistics) that even leftist parties are starting to change the tune... too late. The damage to the reputation is done.

-Feminism: At least here in Spain we have some nutty positive discrimination laws whose irrationality and potential for abuse (and the many reported cases of abuse of the law) have turned many (mostly men) against it. Positive discrimination is a wrongheaded way to fight against inequalities. It may do some good for some people in the short term but tampering with the principle of "equality before the law" will bring disaster in the long term

- Trans issues: Not as big an issue here as in the UK or the USA but it´s been on the news too. We had a self-id law enacted and although it´s new and we haven´t had any famous cases of men raping in women´s prisons like in the UK etc., the irrationality of the law is so glaring that has been discussed and ridiculed al length.

The thing about the trans issue it that, even if it should never have become such a big thing, since it affects so few people... it´s a big glaring failure that casts a shadow on (the otherwise not so bad) leftism. It´s like a big red glowing mole on someone´s nose that one can´t avoid looking at and makes them unsightly. One knows that it´s just a mostly benign mole, but can´t avoid the feeling of disgust.

The thing is that, small as the issue may be, leftists are WRONG about it. Self id is ridiculous, pushing hormones to kids irresponsible etc. And calling names to anyone who points at these obvious irrationalities just pushes people away.

I guess some of these things may be applicable to the USA too (immigration perhaps not applicable at all since the specifics are completely different). I haven´t voted in Spain for a long time, both right wing and left wing parties are too similar, corrupt to the bone, and there´s little point. But if I could vote in the USA I would have voted Democrat. Any failings by Democrats pale next to Trump´s movie villain style of dangerous populism.

 

[3point14]

-Immigration: Years and years denying there was a problem at all, calling anyone who said there should be some limits to immigration racists etc... And now it´s just impossible to hide it, the issues (increase of criminality etc.) are so evident (damning statistics) that even leftist parties are starting to change the tune... too late. The damage to the reputation is done.

This in contrast to my understanding. Can you provide the statistics and source?


See here:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/immigrants-and-crime

"A growing volume of research demonstrates that not only do immigrants commit fewer crimes, but they also do not raise crime rates in the U.S. communities where they settle."

 

[Abooga]

This in contrast to my understanding. Can you provide the statistics and source?


See here:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/immigrants-and-crime

"A growing volume of research demonstrates that not only do immigrants commit fewer crimes, but they also do not raise crime rates in the U.S. communities where they settle."

Based on the same official statistical data, leftist papers (transparently PSOE mouthpiece El Pais for example https://elpais.com/expres/2024-09-0...on-y-delincuencia-pese-al-ruido-politico.html) argues that yes, immigrants cause more crimes but it´s due to other factors, they are younger, poorer etc. So they downplay the issues and don´t even want to talk about sexual violence. (they do, but only when Spaniards do it)

Right wing papers give other data (for example https://theobjective.com/espana/2022-10-02/agresion-sexual-espana-extranjeros/): Migrants, 11,39% of the population (5.440.118 from 47.435.597) commit more than half of the total rapes.

(These are taken from official Spanish statistics. )

These are just two examples, you can do some research yourself. Leftist rags downplay the problem, sometimes comically so. A couple years ago El Pais denounced a Vox (far right) politician as a liar because he said migrants (12% of the population) accounted for half of criminality. Big news item, front page. When you read the text they said that it was a lie because it was not half, it was "only 45%" (I can´t recall the exact number but it was something like that). like WHAT? How can anyone with half a brain not distrust El Pais after reading that? Poorly executed propaganda...

Similar statistics have been making the rounds, from Sweden, Norway etc. I don´t have the time right now to post more links, google is your friend... but remember media biases...

(But I suppose in the USA the issues, and statistics are very different. Mexican migrants and Moroccan migrants are not the same thing)

 

[3point14]

Based on the same official statistical data, leftist papers (transparently PSOE mouthpiece El Pais for example https://elpais.com/expres/2024-09-0...on-y-delincuencia-pese-al-ruido-politico.html) argues that yes, immigrants cause more crimes but it´s due to other factors, they are younger, poorer etc. So they downplay the issues and don´t even want to talk about sexual violence. (they do, but only when Spaniards do it)

Right wing papers give other data (for example https://theobjective.com/espana/2022-10-02/agresion-sexual-espana-extranjeros/): Migrants, 11,39% of the population (5.440.118 from 47.435.597) commit more than half of the total rapes.

(These are taken from official Spanish statistics. )

These are just two examples, you can do some research yourself. Leftist rags downplay the problem, sometimes comically so. A couple years ago El Pais denounced a Vox (far right) politician as a liar because he said migrants (12% of the population) accounted for half of criminality. Big news item, front page. When you read the text they said that it was a lie because it was not half, it was "only 45%" (I can´t recall the exact number but it was something like that). like WHAT? How can anyone with half a brain not distrust El Pais after reading that? Poorly executed propaganda...

Similar statistics have been making the rounds, from Sweden, Norway etc. I don´t have the time right now to post more links, google is your friend... but remember media biases...

(But I suppose in the USA the issues, and statistics are very different. Mexican migrants and Moroccan migrants are not the same thing)

Got anything about the USA, which is the country under discussion?

 

[Donal]

LOL. The Dems tried to remove Trump, RFKjr, and Stein from various state ballots.

A Trump appointed judge ruled in favor of republicans who sued to get Trump taken off the CO ballot.

And when it looked like RFK Jr was going to take more votes from Trump than Harris, Trump's team tried to get him removed and then made an illegal deal for him to drop out and endorse Trump.

But, hey, since when do facts get in the way of your feelings?

 

[thaiboxerken]

So, even Trausti's example was
1. Not dirty, because it was people trying to uphold the law.
2. Republicans playing "dirty."

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Bro. You lost the election. The time for me to prove anything to you is long past. I'm just here to see if you come up with anything useful in terms of practical lessons for the midterms.

The time to discuss what went wrong in an election the Democrats lost, in a thread dedicated to why they lost, is "long past" because...they already lost? That doesn't make sense.

You recently made a claim, or at least a suggestion, pertinent to the OP topic. The time to support that claim is not "long past".

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Ah yes, the "You said mean things and hurt my feelings" gambit. Not as compelling post-"They're eating the pets" though, is it?

You don't understand how this works. Making up crazy stories about immigrants eating pets and needlessly plunging a town into chaos isn't being mean to Democrats; fact checking the claim and calling out its falsehood and its irresponsibility is being mean to Republicans.

 

[dann]

The Mass Deportation Handoff, Biden to Trump (ConterPunch, Feb 5, 2025)
In fact, during President Biden’s four years in office, he gave 40 contracts worth more than $2 billion to the same GEO Group [a private prison company] (and its associated companies) whose stocks spiked with Trump’s election. Under those contracts, the company was to maintain and expand the U.S. immigrant detention system, while providing ankle bracelets for monitoring people on house arrest.
And that, in fact, offers but a glimpse of Biden’s tenure as — yes! — the biggest contractor (so far) for border and immigration enforcement in U.S. history. During his four years in office, Biden’s administration issued and administered 21,713 border enforcement contracts, worth $32.3 billion, far more than any previous president, including his predecessor Donald Trump, who had spent a mere — and that, of course, is a joke — $20.9 billion from 2017 to 2020 on the same issue.
In other words, Biden left office as the king of border contracts, which shouldn’t have been a surprise, since he received three times more campaign contributions than Trump from top border-industry companies during the 2020 election campaign.

 

[Tero]

We are still having fun with a congressman with Omaha.
He got just 50.9% of the vote. We are all working very hard to break him off from trump. He is only interested in the military and farmers. He does not seem to be tied too much with the Republican governor. He is the ony seat likely to flip in 2026.

Conversations with Average Republican Congressman

On his FB page. Day 2

esapolitics.blogspot.com

So we are working on it. Tim Walz got fierce resistance from NE republicans. With a full year campaign we might have ousted Bacon.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Because the other side was so polite in their messaging....

There's a distinction that seems to get missed by a lot of self-styled progressives here.

There are always exceptions, but generally speaking Republicans have been rude as hell when talking about specific politicians, and even when talking about the Democratic Party as an entity. Democrats have been rude as hell when talking about voters.

In case that's too challenging to parse... Republicans abuse their political opponents, Democrats abuse the constituents they need to have votes from.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This in contrast to my understanding. Can you provide the statistics and source?


See here:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/immigrants-and-crime

"A growing volume of research demonstrates that not only do immigrants commit fewer crimes, but they also do not raise crime rates in the U.S. communities where they settle."

This issue is so fraught with linguistic potholes that it becomes impossible to talk about it without at least one person in the mix going full humpty-dumpty.

Legal immigrants, who go through the entire vetting process, do not increase crime rates at all, and are a net benefit to our country. And pretty much everyone agrees with that - even the majority of republicans. There are only a few pockets of people with what I'll generously call mental issues that don't support the legal immigration process.

Illegal aliens, and to a degree refugees and asylum seekers are a different matter. In the case of illegal entrants, they're not vetted at all. Refugees and asylees are vetted at a lower level and less comprehensively than legal immigrants.

 

[Donal]

Unauthorized Immigrants and Crime

While being present in the United States without authorization represents an administrative infraction (punishable by removal), unauthorized immigrants are less likely to commit misdemeanor and felony crimes than the U.S.-born population and other immigrant groups.

You were saying?

 

[theprestige]

Senator John Fetterman (D), on what the Democrats have been doing wrong:

I think their primary currency was shaming and scolding and talking down to people and telling them, ‘Hey, I know better than you,’ or ‘You’re dopes,’ or ‘You’re a bro,’ or ‘You’re ignorant,’ or ‘How can you be this dumb?’ I can’t imagine it. And then, by the way, they’re fascists. How can you vote for that?’

And on the Democrats' chances of winning back voters that they've lost with that approach:

I think that’s been seriously eroding for a while. And in some cases, in the conversations I’ve had, a lot of people, they don’t even want to say it publicly, but they just feel like the other side seems like … the men’s the problem,”[...] “Men are to blame. Or their masculinity is toxic. Or unless you’re able to conform to our very strict kinds of definition of what we think is appropriate, well then, hey, I’m going to find an alternative. And they’ve done that. That’s absolutely true.

And once [they’ve] kind of turned their back on that demographic, it’s going to be difficult to rebuild and replace that with those voters, because I think that migration has been an ongoing phenomenon for several years and that has been in front and center in part of the election in ’24.

Democrat Sen. John Fetterman blasts party brand as ‘toxic’ after years of ‘shaming and scolding’ voters

Fetterman reiterated his belief that the party did it to itself by constantly attacking and demeaning their opponents.

nypost.com

 

[TragicMonkey]

Yeah, yeah, voters are snowflakes with preciously sensitive feelings. We know. Got to coddle them just like the eggs they value more than democracy itself.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Yeah, yeah, voters are snowflakes with preciously sensitive feelings. We know. Got to coddle them just like the eggs they value more than democracy itself.

If you call a Nazi, a Nazi, they whine.

 

[theprestige]

Yeah, yeah, voters are snowflakes with preciously sensitive feelings. We know. Got to coddle them just like the eggs they value more than democracy itself.

How's President Kamala's first thirty days working out for you?

 

[thaiboxerken]

How's President Kamala's first thirty days working out for you?

About the same as Germany, 1933.

 

[TragicMonkey]

How's President Kamala's first thirty days working out for you?

Lacking principles, all the deplorable have are jeers.