What about this crop circle?

[Sledge]

Except you have refused to answer my questions. Have you changed your mind? If you won't answer my questions I can't trust you. If I can't trust you I might as well have you on ignore.

Yeah, don't you hate when people won't answer your questions? Questions like "what point are you trying to make here, Limbo?" I'm sure your answer will be forthcoming.

 

[I Ratant]

Mathematicians are known to exist, aliens are not.

Can't you imagine crop circle groups trying to outdo each other?

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Well, yeah, that's why there's so many different kinds, all "evolving" from the initial simplistic board,string, stomped original.

 

[I Ratant]

...In other designs, many people have found 'hidden' messages that were not intentionally designed in. But as a good crop circle design leaves a LOT of room for personal interpretation, this surprises me least as that is mostly the intent of the ambiguous designs.

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Even forum messages contain unintentional information, such as total cluelessness.

 

[Limbo]

But 'argument from ignorance' is synonymous with the woo promoter.

I'm not making an argument from ignorance. I'm making an argument based on observation. For instance I observe an alchemical crop circle, and I argue that if so then the circlemaker has alchemical knowledge. So if a team of circlemakers made it, then at least one of them must have some alchemical knowledge. Right?

Was such obscure knowledge "easily" available to find on the internet in 1991? Or would a less quick and superficial level of alchemical familiarity be required? Maybe a level of expertise?

 

[Toke]

I'm not making an argument from ignorance. I'm making an argument based on observation. For instance I observe an alchemical crop circle, and I argue that if so then the circlemaker has alchemical knowledge. So if a team of circlemakers made it, then at least one of them must have some alchemical knowledge. Right?

Was such obscure knowledge "easily" available to find on the internet in 1991? Or would a less quick and superficial level of alchemical familiarity be required? Maybe a level of expertise?

Well, one of them must have seen it somewhere while looking for new designs to outdo the others.
Did you know that alchemy is older than 1991 and that libraries, with books, on alchemy, existed before then. For people familiar with such institutions it would not be an unnatural place to look.

 

[Vortigern99]

I'm not making an argument from ignorance. I'm making an argument based on observation. For instance I observe an alchemical crop circle, and I argue that if so then the circlemaker has alchemical knowledge. So if a team of circlemakers made it, then at least one of them must have some alchemical knowledge. Right?

Was such obscure knowledge "easily" available to find on the internet in 1991? Or would a less quick and superficial level of alchemical familiarity be required? Maybe a level of expertise?

I gather you've heard of books? These, as you might know, were widely available pre-1991.

 

[Toke]

I gather you've heard of books? These, as you might know, were widely available pre-1991.

Sounds like a fellow old timer, from the days of books and libraries for searching information.

 

[Marduk]

For instance I observe an alchemical crop circle

Ummm, the text actually says

This pattern is one of the most important alchemical and Hermetic symbols. It is featured in Michespacher's 1654 book Cabala in Alchymia as the diagram describing the very process of Creation

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so I would guess that commonly known information has been available since the middle of the 17th century

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Limbo:

So I see every question you've asked has been answered except for your prying into Stray Cat's personal life (which is irrelevant).

So why don't you answer the questions many of us have been asking you for some time now?

What do you believe about crop circles and what is the evidence for your position?

Please, stop your "just asking questions" and answer this before you proceed.

 

[Stray Cat]

I'm not making an argument from ignorance. I'm making an argument based on observation. For instance I observe an alchemical crop circle, and I argue that if so then the circlemaker has alchemical knowledge. So if a team of circlemakers made it, then at least one of them must have some alchemical knowledge. Right?

Was such obscure knowledge "easily" available to find on the internet in 1991? Or would a less quick and superficial level of alchemical familiarity be required? Maybe a level of expertise?

What ever Freddy Silva interpreted INTO the crop circle wasn't necessarily what the people who made it had in mind.

As I'm sure that the people who made this one, didn't expect it to have so many connections to the McDonalds logo

In fact you can take most any design and 'decode' it to make what ever you want.

This is a diagram of a crop circle that was made in 2008 (the green lines are the tractor lines):

Fun innit?

 

[gambling_cruiser]

Limbo, because somebody reads alchemical meaning into a graphic design, doesn't mean the crop circle makers know anything about alchemy. They just made a pretty picture.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

In other designs, many people have found 'hidden' messages that were not intentionally designed in. But as a good crop circle design leaves a LOT of room for personal interpretation, this surprises me least as that is mostly the intent of the ambiguous designs.

Good point. See also the Bible Code stuff.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

An example from my personal life. I'm a professional juggler, but for a hobby, I do "joggling"--distance running while juggling. I've done a few half-marathons.

Last April I ran a half marathon in the pouring rain. (Yes--in the rain!!!!) The clubs were a little slippery, despite my wrapping the handles with Ace wrap. (I've since found a better solution--putting a few coils of boundary twine around the handles and taping it in place.)

I did the entire run non-stop (I don't even take water so I can juggle and run continuously), got soaked to the bone and had only one drop. And that drop was when I was mugging for a camera. The worst part was that I did almost no running last winter, so I basically did the run on just 2 weeks of training. (I was pretty out of shape, and my speed suffered greatly.)

Limbo, is this proof of paranormal activity? Not only did I do it for free, I actually paid over $100 (the race registration, plus parking fee)!

Or will you at least admit that your arguments based on the weather and on the "amateur" status of the circle makers is flat out wrong?

Meanwhile, what do you believe about crop circles and what is the evidence for your position?

 

[Elizabeth I]

Last April I ran a half marathon in the pouring rain. (Yes--in the rain!!!!) The clubs were a little slippery, despite my wrapping the handles with Ace wrap. (I've since found a better solution--putting a few coils of boundary twine around the handles and taping it in place.)

OT, but I'm curious - wouldn't it be easier to juggle tennis balls or beanbags or something smaller and more evenly shaped when you're running, than clubs?

We now return you to your regularly scheduled crop circle.

p.s. Srsly cool!

 

[Limbo]

Well, one of them must have seen it somewhere while looking for new designs to outdo the others.
Did you know that alchemy is older than 1991 and that libraries, with books, on alchemy, existed before then. For people familiar with such institutions it would not be an unnatural place to look.

If so then their motivation was not to get the attention of a religious community, or to send a philosophical message, but to 'outdo the others'. Some circlemaker just happened across a picture of it, thought it looked cool, and chose it.

Maybe there is a sense of rivalry with some groups. But they also seem to work together on a theme and on placement. Placement seems to be very important. There's more to it than simply choosing the closest field. There seems to be patterns to crop circle locations, times, themes. If so who coordinates the various groups? Or is it all just coincidence?

 

[Toke]

Why would they require coordination?

Even if a field is picked at random instead of deliberately to mess with cerealogist, they would most likely assign it some mystical importance or other.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Have you ever made a crop circle from which something unexpected and powerful came, like a new mathematical theorem or whatnot? Or do you know any circlemakers who have had that sort of experience and said something like, "hey ya'know when I was making that circle I didn't intend the design to come out that way, the design just sort of happened by accident because I don't know **** about X."

Any time you make a design that involved geometric shapes, you are going to incorporate some relationships that someone can use to generate some sort of "theorum". That one crop circle that supposedly contained a diatonic scale, for instance. The diatonic scale is based on a fairly simple mathematical principle, the harmonic series (1/1, 1/2, 1/3, etc.). There are all sorts of ways you can derive that from a random aesthetic pattern, if you have the time and inclination.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Maybe there is a sense of rivalry with some groups. But they also seem to work together on a theme and on placement. Placement seems to be very important. There's more to it than simply choosing the closest field. There seems to be patterns to crop circle locations, times, themes. If so who coordinates the various groups?

Silly question.

Who coordinates fads in fashion or TV shows or music?

(ETA: To return to the example I've been using: snowboarders all over the world who speak different languages all end up doing the same set of tricks--except for Shaun White who invents the new ones that everyone else will be doing in a few years. Is this proof of someone coordinating all the snow boarders around the world?

And as an overlap--these snowboarders even adopt many of the same fashion and cultural habits!)

So--another one of your stupid questions is disposed of.

(ETA: For clarity, it looks like you were setting up a false dichotomy. That the common themes treated in crop circles are only explicable by either some actual coordinating body or they are the result of paranormal activity. In fact, it's logically possible--even likely--that neither of these explanations is true. So pointing out that one is false, doesn't make the other one true.)

Now please answer the question you've been asked repeatedly: what do you believe about crop circles, and what is the evidence for your position?

 

[Limbo]

Why would they require coordination?

Well, things like this.

The Underground Connection

[...]

87% of all formations in England occurred above an aquifer, and this figure rose to nearly 93% for the area of Britain south of a line from the Bristol Channel to the Wash.

[...]

They basically show that an average of 71% of all UK crop formations each year occur on chalk or its neighbouring greensand, and if we just look at the area south of a line from the Wash to the Bristol Channel (85-90% of all formations are south of this line) the figure increases to 79%.

[...]

Doesn't look like people are making them just any ol' place.

 

[Stray Cat]

Maybe there is a sense of rivalry with some groups. But they also seem to work together on a theme and on placement. Placement seems to be very important. There's more to it than simply choosing the closest field. There seems to be patterns to crop circle locations, times, themes. If so who coordinates the various groups? Or is it all just coincidence?

Certainly, in Wiltshire there is a kind of 'pattern' to it.
The experienced circlemakers know the best places.
By 'best places' I mean were the circles can be easily viewed from surrounding hills (Eastfield which is probably the most famous crop circle field having been on the front of the Led Zepplin album cover is a natural amphitheater as was the Devil's Punchbowl in Hampshire where Doug & Dave made most of their circles).
It is also known by those who have been around long enough, which farmers are more friendly towards croppies.
By this I mean that some farmers will just cut out the designs at first light, which is a waste of everyone's time & effort, but the more croppy friendly one's put an honesty box at the field gate and allow people free access (for a small donation).
Then there are the regular rotations of crop (sometimes a field is left fallow for a year) so the right field has to be ripe at the right time of year with the right crop in it.
The order of crop ripeness being: OSR from April, Barley from Late May Wheat from Early June.