'What about building 7'?

[DGM]

It also means that he did not notice the horrific sustained building shake that others observed when 1 WTC collapsed.

Stranger still is he didn't notice either building collapsing. Remember, he claims it happened after he broke the window.


Don't you find that incredibly hard to believe too?

 

[jaydeehess]

.

A lot of mundane stuff must have happened to the two men when they arrived at the 8th floor.

Including a period of several seconds during which WTC7 shook and rocked as large columns were gouged out. A time when a thick dust cloud surrounded WTC7 dozens of floors up. A time when pretty much every window on the south side of the floor they were on was smashed. A time when that dust cloud rolled through those windows.

Mundane stuff like that.

ETA: Before you go complaining that no comment was made about the effect of WTC2 falling while on the 23rd floor, theres no comparison. WTC2 debris broke a few lower floor windows and no structural damage. No broken windows on the 23rd floor, no choking dust cloud on the 23rd floor. A collapse twice as far away as WTC1.

 

[twinstead]

I never would have imagined, but 911 conspiracies have finally become boring to me. It's a sad state of affairs indeed. I used to live in this section of the forum. Alas, I hardly ever come here any more; I finally understand that the "truth" movement has simply become a caricature of itself.

Apparently it's been this way for a long time. I must be a late bloomer...

 

[thedopefishlives]

I never would have imagined, but 911 conspiracies have finally become boring to me. It's a sad state of affairs indeed. I used to live in this section of the forum. Alas, I hardly ever come here any more; I finally understand that the "truth" movement has simply become a caricature of itself.

Apparently it's been this way for a long time. I must be a late bloomer...

I have to admit, MM's desperate attempts at spinning Jennings and Hess's testimonies is about the most entertainment we've had around here for a while. MM's proposed timeline makes absolutely zero sense, but it's fun to watch him squirm when called on the bad logical leaps.

 

[Gamolon]

I found this quote from Barry Jennings from the BBC interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYnsqBG75s) starting right at the beginning:

When we got to the 8th floor, I started walking to one side of the building.

Not sure quite sure what he says next:

[The opposite side] or [That side] or [The upside] or [The other side] of the building was gone.

Sounds like he was definitely talking about the portion of WTC7 being gouged out due to the collapse of WTC1.

Using that quote above with the quote from below (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o0PTsP1_AE):

After getting to the 8th floor everything was dark. It was dark and it was very, very hot. VERY hot. Um... I asked Mr. Hess to check the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows. Once I broke out the windows I could see outside below me... I saw uh... police cars... on fire... buses on fire. I looked one way the building was there, I looked the other way, it was gone.

Makes it sound like he was looking out a window from either the south side or the west side in order to see the gouged out portion.

 

[Gamolon]

Actually, no I don't. You do like to make assumptions.

[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/SouthFace_zps65b99f57.png[/qimg]​

I haven't ignored anything.

Maybe you should put the bong down for a while and consider what you are saying?

[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/NIST5-95-97_zps39cde12f.png[/qimg]​

In my opinion, using the above graphics of the damage location and Jennings' quotes, it sounds like they came down the west stairwell, exited to the south, looked out through the gouged out southwest section of WTC7, made their way east, and then north to the northeast corner.

 

[GlennB]

That certainly makes sense of the mysterious " I looked one way the building was there, I looked the other way, it was gone." part.

 

[Miragememories]

If when is what you believe, than obviously Mr. Jennings could not have seen the WTC twin towers still standing.

It also means that he did not notice the horrific sustained building shake that others observed when 1 WTC collapsed.

Stranger still is he didn't notice either building collapsing.

Remember, he claims it happened after he broke the window.

Don't you find that incredibly hard to believe too?

I find it impossible to believe.

Yes. Mr. Jennings believed that both of the WTC twin must have occurred after he broke the windows.

That belief was based on his interpretation of the behaviour of the firefighters when they appeared to twice abort attempts at rescuing him from his location in the 8th floor NE corner office.

I was in agreement with Mr. Jenning's misinterpretation until Norseman gave me a better appreciation of Mr. Jenning's perspective.

First of all, it is not strange that Mr. Jennings did not notice realize when each tower collapsed, when you consider that at the time, he was unaware the towers were in harm's way.

After the first explosion that he and Mr. Hess witnessed from the 6th floor stairwell landing, Mr. Jennings was continually made conscious of explosions throughout his stay on the 8th floor of 7 WTC.

Until hours later, after he was rescued, he was still under the mistaken belief that the WTC twin towers were still standing.

It was not until he got home and watched the TV News that he began to piece the puzzle together.

Not having any terms of reference for each collapse that would allow him to link to a specific time and place while he was in 7 WTC, Mr. Jennings had to guess based on what he observed.

Of course he understood that the collapses occurred sometime during the period of continuing explosions that he experienced inside 7 WTC.

Explosions, that for him, started before, during, and after the actual collapses took place.

What I believe happened is that after experiencing the explosion from the 6th floor stairwell, Mr. Jenning climbed to the 8th floor.

After entering the 8th floor, he went to see what was happening with 1 WTC and only looked closely enough to note that it, and 2 WTC were there, as he naturally expected.

Soon after, he felt and heard more explosions and the 8th floor went totally dark.

He had already witnessed an explosion from the 6th floor which had knocked out the emergency lights in the stairwell.

"Sure. When I made it to the 6th floor and there was an explosion.

The explosion was beneath me.

Keep in mind now, it's pitch black in there. All the lights went out.

...So that's when we went back up to the 8th floor and I busted out that window."

Also keep in mind that he was leaving a pitch dark stairwell when he first entered the 8th floor.

"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark."

If, he was moving from darkness to darkness, it would seem pointlessly redundant for him to say "after".

So, following the collapse of 2 WTC shortly after his arrival at the 8th floor, for part of the 30 minutes that followed that collapse and preceding the collapse of 1 WTC, Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess struggled to find their way on a dark floor densely populated by office cubicles.

When he reached the NE corner office, he smashed out a window and was able to see the dust, debris and burning vehicles on Barclay St. and further north.

He did not yet know that what he was seeing was the aftermath of the WTC twin towers having collapsed.

He could only assume that it was part of the catastrophe that occurred and was still occurring inside 7 WTC.

He observed the firefighters come and go while attempting to find a means to rescue himself and Mr. Hess.

Meanwhile, he continued to hear explosions and it was becoming increasingly hotter.

At that time he did not know what to conclude from the behaviour of the firefighters.

Later, at home while watching the News he wrongly concluded the firefighters behaved the way they did because they were reacting to what he could not see, the collapsing WTC towers.

 

[Gamolon]

That certainly makes sense of the mysterious " I looked one way the building was there, I looked the other way, it was gone." part.

The other part that fits is that when they were rescued, Jennings said they went down and came out into the lobby. The east stairwell was right by the east end of the lobby. The lobby was situated in the southeast portion of WTC7.

In my opinion, this is what happened:

1. Came down the west stairwell
2. "Explosion" at 6th floor landing
3. Climbed back up to 8th floor
4. Went south and observed the gouged out/open south side of WTC7
5. Proceeded east around the banks of elevators
6. Turned north
7. Got to the northeast office
8. Broke out the window to call for help

 

[Miragememories]

Obviously he is so familiar with his own story, after no doubt telling it repeatedly over the last several years, that he keeps 'cutting to the chase'.

Rather than drearily go over the tedious chronology of events for the umpteenth time, he attempts to hilite the items that he believes would be of interest to the camera.

A lot of mundane stuff must have happened to the two men when they arrived at the 8th floor.

Better interviewers would have plied Mr. Jennings with questions which would have compelled him to methodically go over the series of events that transpired.

Unfortunately, they gave him too much free rein and little, to no direction.

Keep in mind, the things he did observe have not been proven to be untrue. The biggest problem is that the interviewers failed to get enough details out of him.

Including a period of several seconds during which WTC7 shook and rocked as large columns were gouged out.

A time when a thick dust cloud surrounded WTC7 dozens of floors up.

A time when pretty much every window on the south side of the floor they were on was smashed.

A time when that dust cloud rolled through those windows.

Mundane stuff like that.

ETA: Before you go complaining that no comment was made about the effect of WTC2 falling while on the 23rd floor, theres no comparison.

WTC2 debris broke a few lower floor windows and no structural damage.

No broken windows on the 23rd floor, no choking dust cloud on the 23rd floor. A collapse twice as far away as WTC1.

Well I believe much of what you refer to was covered by Mr. Jenning's interviews with Loose Change and the BBC.

Shortly after his arrival at the 8th floor, 2 WTC collapsed.

"Sure. When I made it to the 6th floor and there was an explosion.

The explosion was beneath me.

Keep in mind now, it's pitch black in there. All the lights went out.

...So that's when we went back up to the 8th floor and I busted out that window."

"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark."

In the BBC interview, he elaborates a bit more about what he experienced after 1 WTC collapsed but before he smashed out the NE corner window.

"The first explosion I heard was when I was on the stairwell landing.

When we made it down to the 6th floor.

Then we made it back to the 8th floor. I heard some more explosions.

"What sort of sound?"

"Like a B O O M.

Like an explosion.

"And more than one?"

"Yes.

I could smell fire.

You know. You could smell the smoke and I felt the heat. It was intense."

When we got to the 8th floor, I started walking to one side of the building.

The other side of the building was gone."

The above links well with what he said in the Loose Change interview.

"Once I broke out the windows, I could see..outside below me.

I saw er..police cars..on fire..buses on fire.

Uh. I looked one way.

The building was there. [WTC7] I looked the other way. It was gone.

So I believe this reveals that after the collapse of 1 WTC, Mr. Jennings did observe that part of 7 WTC was "gone".

 

[Gamolon]

He had already witnessed an explosion from the 6th floor which had knocked out the emergency lights in the stairwell.

"Sure. When I made it to the 6th floor and there was an explosion.

The explosion was beneath me.

Keep in mind now, it's pitch black in there. All the lights went out.

...So that's when we went back up to the 8th floor and I busted out that window."

Can you please explain why you keep getting Jennings' quotes wrong?

When I made it to the 6th floor... and... and... and the... there was an explosion... the explosion was beneath me. Keep in mind now, it's pitch black in there, all the lights went out. So when the explosion happened, it blew us back.

It sounds to me like it was pitch black already when the "explosion" happened.

 

[Gamolon]

So I believe this reveals that after the collapse of 1 WTC, Mr. Jennings did observe that part of 7 WTC was "gone".

If he indeed saw that a potion of WTC7 was gouged out through a window that he broke, then that means he broke a window on either the south side or the west side. Breaking a window on the northeast or west side wouldn't have given him a view of that damage.

 

[Gamolon]

The other part that fits is that when they were rescued, Jennings said they went down and came out into the lobby. The east stairwell was right by the east end of the lobby. The lobby was situated in the southeast portion of WTC7.

In my opinion, this is what happened:

1. Came down the west stairwell
2. "Explosion" at 6th floor landing
3. Climbed back up to 8th floor
4. Went south and observed the gouged out/open south side of WTC7
5. Proceeded east around the banks of elevators
6. Turned north
7. Got to the northeast office
8. Broke out the window to call for help

I looked at the damaged floor diagrams again. If they are correct, Barry, coming out of the west stairwell would have had to have gone around the northwest side of the building and then east along the north side because the floor shows as being damaged/removed just south of the west stairwell.

I think Barry saw the damaged portion of WTC7 from the interior of the 8th floor, not through a window he broke out.

 

[jaydeehess]

Yes. Mr. Jennings believed that both of the WTC twin must have occurred after he broke the windows.

That belief was based on his interpretation of the behaviour of the firefighters when they appeared to twice abort attempts at rescuing him from his location in the 8th floor NE corner office.

I was in agreement with Mr. Jenning's misinterpretation until Norseman gave me a better appreciation of Mr. Jenning's perspective.

First of all, it is not strange that Mr. Jennings did not notice realize when each tower collapsed, when you consider that at the time, he was unaware the towers were in harm's way.

Did I ever claim that he should have remarked on the collapse of either tower? I don't believe I did. I believe I have been very succinct in saying its extremely odd that while both men remarked on the effects of the 'explosion' in the stairwell, neither of them remarked upon the heaviest shaking that WTC 7 experienced prior to its own collapse, that caused by the violent tearing out of several structural columns on the south side. Its also quite obvious that most if not all windows on the south wall of the eighth floor were broken and that the massive dust cloud would have filled the eighth floor with choking dust, neither of which are remarked upon.

That's incredible.

After the first explosion that he and Mr. Hess witnessed from the 6th floor stairwell landing, Mr. Jennings was continually made conscious of explosions throughout his stay on the 8th floor of 7 WTC.

Like I said, you assume they adopted a "been there, done that" attitude. Nothing special about the effect of these further 'explosions"

Until hours later, after he was rescued, he was still under the mistaken belief that the WTC twin towers were still standing.

Again, SO? How does that make the effects of having the south facade destroyed any less remarkable?

Of course he understood that the collapses occurred sometime during the period of continuing explosions that he experienced inside 7 WTC.

If by that you mean while he was on the eighth floor then he's what is referred to commonly as 'wrong'.

What I believe happened is that after experiencing the explosion from the 6th floor stairwell, Mr. Jenning climbed to the 8th floor.

After entering the 8th floor, he went to see what was happening with 1 WTC and only looked closely enough to note that it, and 2 WTC were there, as he naturally expected.

Why would he do that? According to you all he assumes is happening outside is that a small plane had hit #1. He was ordered out of WTC 7. He saw no one else on the way down. The OEM would be expected to be the last office evacuated. Now you are saying that he DID connect the incident in WTC 1 with the incident if the WTC 7 stairwell? That he did understand that the threat to he and Hess may come from WTC 1?
No?
Then he must assume that all that he has experienced, including the directive to get out, originates from a threat within the building he is in.
That in mind, according to you we have two men trying to leave this building, experiencing the building shake , fill with dust, and go dark. They back track upwards (away from getting out), find no means by which to contact anyone on the outside, then they sit about doing,,,something else,,,, for 30 minutes and then finally overcome that voice in the head that says that breaking windows is vandalism.

That's incredible.

Soon after, he felt and heard more explosions and the 8th floor went totally dark.

No, there was no power at all so it was already dark. More so because of the dust in the air after the collapse of WTC 1

He had already witnessed an explosion from the 6th floor which had knocked out the emergency lights in the stairwell.

He had experienced the effect of the collapse of WTC 1 on WTC 7 but did not know that was what happened.

Also keep in mind that he was leaving a pitch dark stairwell when he first entered the 8th floor.

If, he was moving from darkness to darkness, it would seem pointlessly redundant for him to say "after".

Less dark on the eighth than in the stairwell, but darker than he expected, thus "after" he got to the eighth floor.

So, following the collapse of 2 WTC shortly after his arrival at the 8th floor, for part of the 30 minutes that followed that collapse and preceding the collapse of 1 WTC, Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess struggled to find their way on a dark floor densely populated by office cubicles.

Wait, what? You just said they were looking out the south windows. He knew there was a first response operation occurring for WTC 1 , to the south. If he was already there then the best bet would be to break out south side windows rather than to make his way across the darker (more interior walls) north side

When he reached the NE corner office, he smashed out a window and was able to see the dust, debris and burning vehicles on Barclay St. and further north.

He did not yet know that what he was seeing was the aftermath of the WTC twin towers having collapsed.
He could only assume that it was part of the catastrophe that occurred and was still occurring inside 7 WTC.

Which apparently caused no great noise, shaking, dust that might be remarkable. This despite the columns being torn out, despite that dozens of windows breaking all at essentially the same time.

That's incredible.

Meanwhile, he continued to hear explosions and it was becoming increasingly hotter.

Yeah , WTC 7 was on fire, so was WTC 6, so were vehicles on the street, there was no air handling in operation in the building and it was coming up on noon on a relatively nice day. Wonder what those explosions were and why it was getting hotter?

At that time he did not know what to conclude from the behaviour of the firefighters.

Later, at home while watching the News he wrongly concluded the firefighters behaved the way they did because they were reacting to what he could not see, the collapsing WTC towers.]

.... and that the 'explosion' in the stairwell was the effect of the collapse of WTC1.

 

[Gamolon]

So I believe this reveals that after the collapse of 1 WTC, Mr. Jennings did observe that part of 7 WTC was "gone".

Exactly! According to Barry's BBC interview:

When we got to the 8th floor, I started walking to one side of the building. [The opposite side] or [That side] or [The upside] or [The other side] of the building was gone.

He walked to one side of the building and it was GONE! He saw the gouged opening from INSIDE while on the 8th floor. Not through a window. Especially not through the northeast office window because he could never have seen the damage to WTC7 from there.

That means when he got to the 8th floor, WTC1 had already fallen and damaged WTC7.

 

[Gamolon]

I find those beliefs to be far too incredible a basis for saying Mr. Jennings was mistaken about seeing the WTC twin towers still standing when he arrived at the 8th floor.

Well, now you have a major problem.

When we got to the 8th floor, I started walking to one side of the building. [The opposite side] or [That side] or [The upside] or [The other side] of the building was gone.

So when they reached the 8th floor Barry started walking and noticed that part of WTC7 was gouged out. Right on the very floor her was on in fact. This means he COULDN'T have seen both towers as WTC1 caused that gouge.

Him seeing the gouge/opening in the southwest face after emerging from the stairwell probably added to his thinking that there was an explosion and that the explosion ripped the southwest face apart to create the gouge/opening.

 

[jaydeehess]

Exactly! According to Barry's BBC interview:


He walked to one side of the building and it was GONE! He saw the gouged opening from INSIDE while on the 8th floor. Not through a window. Especially not through the northeast office window because he could never have seen the damage to WTC7 from there.

That means when he got to the 8th floor, WTC1 had already fallen and damaged WTC7.

That makes sense. It also explains why, if they had moved south as I would have done, knowing that there would be FFs on Vesey Street, they chose instead to move to the NE corner. The south was simply not safe, the NE corner is as far away from that area as they could go.

IF Jennings thought he saw the towers still standing he was simply wrong. Unsurprising as his focus must be on WTC7 and how they were going to get out. I would think that seeing part of the (singular) building "gone" would focus one's attention on the task at hand for them, getting out of the building. What was truly happening elsewhere would be of secondary concern and mental/emotional focus. In order to see the towers he would have to be looking up and over the burning WTC 6 and through the smoke and dust.

 

[Gamolon]

If he was experiencing the collapse of 2 WTC at this time, he should have experienced much more than just inactive TV monitors.

Additionally, from their 23rd floor location, halfway up 7 WTC, Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings should have experienced more than just a loss of lighting.

Mr. Hess, who in his BBC interview made great play of the 5-10 seconds of building shake he believed was caused by 1 WTC's collapse, apparently experienced none of this while alone with Mr. Jennings in the silent OEC.

You claim they should have experienced much more then than they say yet they make no mention of anything when WTC1 debris impacted WTC7 and gouged out a portion of the very floor they were on and you're ok with it.

 

[jaydeehess]

You claim they should have experienced much more then than they say yet they make no mention of anything when WTC1 debris impacted WTC7 and gouged out a portion of the very floor they were on and you're ok with it.

Quite right!

Including a period of several seconds during which WTC7 shook and rocked as large columns were gouged out. A time when a thick dust cloud surrounded WTC7 dozens of floors up. A time when pretty much every window on the south side of the floor they were on was smashed. A time when that dust cloud rolled through those windows.

Mundane stuff like that.

ETA: Before you go complaining that no comment was made about the effect of WTC2 falling while on the 23rd floor, theres no comparison. WTC2 debris broke a few lower floor windows and no structural damage. No broken windows on the 23rd floor, no choking dust cloud on the 23rd floor. A collapse twice as far away as WTC1.

and elsewhere:

No mention of the supposed second and third clouds of choking dust, no mention of the enveloping darkness experienced by every single person caught in it, no mention of this massive dust cloud occurring in conjunction with the firefighters leaving the area, no mention of the severe shaking of the structure as large columns were being ripped from the building.
Are we to believe the ridiculous , Wile E. Coyote physics style argument that unless one sees how something comes about it has no effect?

Hess describes very much like what Catalano describes. He describes this as happening once and only once despite your timeline meaning it would have happened to them three times with the last one being the absolute worst as large chunks of the building are torn out(as opposed to a damaged stairway from an 'explosion' that not one of the dozens of people still in the building and nearby heard), and your explanation is 'well Jennings does say he heard explosions.', In the same breath you complain that neither Jennings or Hess noticed the building shake while three times higher up in an area with local backup power and which would not suffer a great influx of dust.

No mention of the massive and choking dust cloud ............. No mention of how these 'explosions' he heard also shook the building in the same or worse fashion they experienced at the sixth floor.

Your grasping at straws is evident to everyone with an iota of logic and reason.

 

[Miragememories]

It sounds to me like it was pitch black already when the "explosion" happened.

"When we reached the...the 6th floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way.

There was an explosion. And the landing 'gave way'."

"When I reached down to the 6th floor, there was this eerie sound. The whole building went dark. And the staircase that I was standing on just gave way."

"..we got exactly to 6, all of a sudden, at the same instant, 5 different things happened.

The first was, the lights went out. The emergency lights went out so we were in total darkness."

It sounds to me like it became dark after the explosion.

If he indeed saw that a potion of WTC7 was gouged out through a window that he broke, then that means he broke a window on either the south side or the west side.

Breaking a window on the northeast or west side wouldn't have given him a view of that damage.

You have an amazing ability to misconstrue.

Mr. Jennings obviously was not referring to a view out of one of those broken windows.

After he broke the windows was a time reference.

Looking out the NE broken window he saw "police cars..on fire..buses on fire."

Following his breaking out that window, from inside 7 WTC on the 8th floor, he saw that part of it was now missing.

"I looked one way.

The building was there. [WTC7] I looked the other way. It was gone."

I looked at the damaged floor diagrams again.

If they are correct, Barry, coming out of the west stairwell would have had to have gone around the northwest side of the building and then east along the north side because the floor shows as being damaged/removed just south of the west stairwell.

I think Barry saw the damaged portion of WTC7 from the interior of the 8th floor, not through a window he broke out.

You are making some progress in your understanding.

Your conjecture about the west stairwell is unsupported because reports indicate that it was still passable to the 8th floor after both WTC towers collapsed.

I believe that sometime after breaking the NE window, Mr. Jennings moved around the 8th floor and observed the damage to the southwest corner of 7 WTC.

Piecing together Mr. Jenning's non-chronological listing of assorted events, my view of how he came to see the damage to the south west corner of 7 WTC was this.

Seeing how 'strict' you are in your understanding of Mr. Jennings observations from his broken timeline, I do not expect you to be in agreement with my interpretation of what happened.

"Once, I broke out the windows, I could see..outside below me...

Meaning at a time after he broke out the windows these are things that over time, I observed.

But, this is an interview statement not a book extract.

He is listing things, but not necessarily in the immediate order that they occurred.

So he pauses and recalls other observations he made.

"Uh. I looked one way. The building was there. [WTC7]

I looked the other way. It was gone."

"The first explosion I heard was when I was on the stairwell landing.

When we made it down to the 6th floor.

Then we made it back to the 8th floor. I heard some more explosions.

"What sort of sound?"

"Like a B O O M.

Like an explosion.

"And more than one?"

"Yes.

I could smell fire.

You know. You could smell the smoke and I felt the heat. It was intense."

When we got to the 8th floor, I started walking to one side of the building.

The other side of the building was gone."

The first piece of interview sheds light on the second piece of interview.

Sometime after he broke the windows, Mr. Jennings saw that part of the building was gone (a whole side is obviously an exaggeration).

In the second piece of interview, Mr. Jennings gets to the 8th floor, while there he hears more explosions, smells smoke, feels the increasing heat [2 WTC collapsed shortly after his arrival, plunging the floor into darkness.]

After some minutes, the generators would have brought the lights back on.

Some minutes later, 1 WTC collapsed and the room darkened again.

When it became sufficiently light, Mr. Jennings made his way to the NE corner where he broke out a window with a fire extinguisher.

Sometime after this, I believe, in order to make sense of Mr. Jenning's statement; "Uh. I looked one way. The building was there. [WTC7], I looked the other way. It was gone.", while moving about the 8th floor (leaving Mr. Hess at the corner office calling outside for help and checking phones), he observed the damage to the south west corner of the 8th floor.

This timeline is further substantiated by Mr. Jennings insistence that after arriving at the 8th floor, he looked, and he saw that both the WTC twin towers were still standing.

The only way he could have observed serious damage to the southwest corner of 7 WTC at that time, would have been if the towers had already collapsed.