'What about building 7'?

[jaydeehess]

Second. The stairwell filled up with a tremendous amount of smoke, and dirt, and soot. Much more than it had been before.
Previously, you could breath for about three flights down, but at that point you couldn't breath..at all. So the second thing was the soot.

So it would seem that from the 9th floor down to the 6th they were already experiencing smoke and dust. WHY?

 

[Animal]

Yes, because the CT rulebook explicitly states that you may create a sufficient number of "in on it"s in order to make the theory work enough to continue the argument.

Cf. global warming, vaxx cause autism, etc.

ETA: Global warming denialism, that is

It amazes me that people can be skeptical (and rightly so) of 911 conspiracy, JFK, vacinations etc, but when it comes to issue of global warming......the skepticism just disappears.

 

[thedopefishlives]

The BBC is in on it?

They were already in on it; they announced WTC7 collapsed before it collapsed, remember? From there, it's only a short leap to believe they deceptively edited the video testimonies to avoid Da Inconvenient Twoof.

 

[Miragememories]

"Second. *The stairwell filled up with a tremendous amount of smoke, and dirt, and soot. Much more than it had been before.

Two flights and we got exactly to 6, all of a sudden, *at the same instant, 5 different things happened...

Previously, you could breath for about three flights down, but at that point you couldn't breath..at all.
So the second thing was the soot."

Hess says of one of those things that happened all at once, that the dust and smoke became much worse than before. BEFORE the incident.

So why was there smoke and dust in the stairwell BEFORE the incident at 6th floor?

Well this might a situation where an eye witness [Mr. Hess] suffered from vague recall because the details of that part of the long lasting event failed to make a strong memory impression.

He was not the man that had the landing fall out from under him.

His questionable recollection years later, shows an unfamiliarity with what was happened to Mr. Jennings at that point, suggesting that after he heard the explosion and saw Mr. Jennings stop, he never advanced further and just turned back when Mr. Jennings said to.

"And the last thing was....the stairway...ran into a wall. All of a sudden, as you were going down on the 6th floor, you hit a wall...

And in my mind I assumed there had been an explosion..ah...in the basement. I don't know why that hit me that way but we couldn't go anywhere. The wall was blocking it. It was pitch dark.

So we went to the stairwell and we're going down the stairs.

When we reached the 8th..uh, the 6th floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way.

There was an explosion.

And the landing 'gave way'.

And we were, I, was left there hanging.

I had to climb back up."

.. so you made it all the way down from the 23rd floor all the way to the 6th floor.

"The 6th floor..right..that's when the explosion happened"

"Now, where did that originate from, where did the explosion come from..under you?"

"Under uh, it was definitely under us..it was definitely under us.

It blew..it blew us back and then I found myself..I thought I was on a stair landing. I wasn't..I found myself hanging on.

The explosion was beneath me.

Keep in mind now, it's pitch black in there. All the lights went out.

So when the explosion happened, it blew us back.

I'm thinking I'm standing on a landing..I'm actually holding on to a pole above us.

And I had to climb back up..cuz Hess is yelling "What do we do now?"

I said "there's only one thing we can do and that's go back up."

Mr. Jennings did not mention any issue with the air quality before arriving at the 6th floor..

 

[GlennB]

Well this might a situation where an eye witness [Mr. Hess] suffered from vague recall because the details of that part of the long lasting event failed to make a strong memory impression.

And how would this be different from Jennings getting mixed up about where he was when he saw both Towers standing?

 

[Miragememories]

And how would this be different from Jennings getting mixed up about where he was when he saw both Towers standing?

Don't you think there is a substantive difference in memory imprinting between a recollection regarding breathable but not great stairwell air quality, vs a recollection of looking and seeing the WTC twin towers still standing on 9/11?

 

[pgimeno]

Don't you think there is a substantive difference in memory imprinting between a recollection regarding breathable but not great stairwell air quality, vs a recollection of looking and seeing the WTC twin towers still standing on 9/11?

You mean between something that could endanger their lives (difficulty to breathe) and seeing what he expected to see?

I do.

 

[Miragememories]

You mean between something that could endanger their lives (difficulty to breathe) and seeing what he expected to see?

I do.

The air quality prior to the explosion appeared to have made little impression on Mr. Jennings.

Unbreathable air in the aftermath of the explosion in the stairwell would be far more memorable than the breathable air that preceded it.

"Much more than it had been before.", fails to usefully characterize the "before" air quality.

Since their whole adventure was precipitated by an aircraft crash into 1 WTC, I would expect they would be greatly interested in the state of 1 WTC when they arrived at the 8th floor and were in a position to look at it.

Especially given the unexpected consequences they found themselves victim to.

Regretably, and very surprisingly, that was a line of questioning that the BBC neglected with both Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings, or if they did, they chose not to include those responses.

It appears likely that Mr. Hess never looked but we know that Mr. Jennings emphatically recalled doing so.

 

[GlennB]

Don't you think there is a substantive difference in memory imprinting between a recollection regarding breathable but not great stairwell air quality, vs a recollection of looking and seeing the WTC twin towers still standing on 9/11?

Yes. More people die of smoke inhalation in fires than from the heat. The smoke would definitely register higher in my memory.

Why do you ask? Why would he care whether the towers were standing, and when, when he was clearly in fear for his life for much of this time?

 

[Norseman]

The air quality prior to the explosion appeared to have made little impression on Mr. Jennings.

Unbreathable air in the aftermath of the explosion in the stairwell would be far more memorable than the breathable air that preceded it.

"Much more than it had been before.", fails to usefully characterize the "before" air quality.

Since their whole adventure was precipitated by an aircraft crash into 1 WTC, I would expect they would be greatly interested in the state of 1 WTC when they arrived at the 8th floor and were in a position to look at it. Especially given the unexpected consequences they found themselves victim to. Regretably, and very surprisingly, that was a line of questioning that the BBC neglected with both Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings, or if they did, they chose not to include those responses.
It appears likely that Mr. Hess never looked but we know that Mr. Jennings emphatically recalled doing so.

Note the highlighted text above and below.
From your own transcription of the BBC interview with Hess, back in post #2311:

"No. Nothing. You heard two things. You heard tremendous wind and you heard a tremendous number of sirens.

And I look out the window, and number one, this ash is flying around, and papers, computer papers are flying around.

And again, I was looking north and west, and the WTC towers were south, so I couldn't see in that direction. And in my mind they were just still on fire."

So BBC did in fact include what you claim that they did not include.

 

[DGM]

Still no response from MM about the lack of power at WTC 7. They both reported it before the "explosion". It was the reason they used the stairs and not the elevators.

Could it be a case of a closed mind that doesn't want to deal with this fact?

 

[Miragememories]

Since their whole adventure was precipitated by an aircraft crash into 1 WTC, I would expect they would be greatly interested in the state of 1 WTC when they arrived at the 8th floor and were in a position to look at it. Especially given the unexpected consequences they found themselves victim to. Regretably, and very surprisingly, that was a line of questioning that the BBC neglected with both Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings, or if they did, they chose not to include those responses.
It appears likely that Mr. Hess never looked but we know that Mr. Jennings emphatically recalled doing so.

Note the highlighted text above and below.
From your own transcription of the BBC interview with Hess, back in post #2311:

"What had you heard at that stage. By the [incomprehensible] Had you heard any sounds like explosions or big sounds"

"No. Nothing. You heard two things. You heard tremendous wind and you heard a tremendous number of sirens.

And I look out the window, and number one, this ash is flying around, and papers, computer papers are flying around.

And again, I was looking north and west, and the WTC towers were south, so I couldn't see in that direction. And in my mind they were just still on fire."

"It [the explosion below the 6th floor stairwell] definitely happened before either tower fell and I'll tell you why.."

"The whole Official Story, the whole reason that Building 7 collapsed allegedly, was because the North Tower fell onto it and caused damage. And what people are going to say, is they're going to say "Barry was hit by debris from the North Tower."

"What happened was - when we made it back to the 8th floor, --- as I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing because I looked.

So BBC did in fact include what you claim that they did not include.

Really?

Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings both agreed they were trapped for more than an hour and a half.

In the part of Mr. Hess's interview they chose to use, the BBC interviewer asked Mr. Hess what he heard at a stage in the interview where Mr. Hess placed himself in the NE corner office on the 8th floor, and you quoted Mr. Hess's response.

We have no idea what Mr. Hess said in his interview from the point where he began his ascent from the 6th floor to the point where he answered the question based on what he heard and saw from the NE corner window which had been broken out by Mr. Jennings.

I've already agreed with you that the WTC towers had collapsed at that point.

Even though Mr. Jennings claimed he looked and saw the WTC twin towers still standing when he arrived at the 8th floor, the BBC never included any interview material addressing that sensational claim!

As a senior editor, I can assure you, I would have had a very heated exchange with my director for cutting such important testimony.

 

[DGM]

Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings both agreed they were trapped for more than an hour and a half.

According to your time-lime. Wouldn't that mean they were rescued within an hour after the south tower collapse?

Inconvenient?

 

[jaydeehess]

​

Well this might a situation where an eye witness [Mr. Hess] suffered from vague recall because the details of that part of the long lasting event failed to make a strong memory impression.

He was not the man that had the landing fall out from under him.

His questionable recollection years later, shows an unfamiliarity with what was happened to Mr. Jennings at that point, suggesting that after he heard the explosion and saw Mr. Jennings stop, he never advanced further and just turned back when Mr. Jennings said to.

​

Mr. Jennings did not mention any issue with the air quality before arriving at the 6th floor..

Or:
The timeline is that WTC2 had collapsed sending some dust into WTC7 which they experienced once below about tenth floor. When then got to the sixth floor WTC1 collapsed sending heavy debris into WTC7 causing the west stairwell blockage, the loss of power/light, and filling the stairwell with choking dust and smoke.
After all that timeline does not require shoehorning into the majority of witness statements in order to agree with one personally preferred witness timeline.

 

[pgimeno]

The air quality prior to the explosion appeared to have made little impression on Mr. Jennings.

Unbreathable air in the aftermath of the explosion in the stairwell would be far more memorable than the breathable air that preceded it.

"Much more than it had been before.", fails to usefully characterize the "before" air quality.

And? The "before" air quality is characterized two paragraphs later:

Previously, you could breath for about three flights down, but at that point you couldn't breath..at all.
​

What's your point?

Since their whole adventure was precipitated by an aircraft crash into 1 WTC, I would expect they would be greatly interested in the state of 1 WTC when they arrived at the 8th floor and were in a position to look at it.

Especially given the unexpected consequences they found themselves victim to.

So, in your view, finding a way out of there would not be a much more compelling need than caring about whether the WTC towers were still standing (which they had no reason to think could be down)?

It appears likely that Mr. Hess never looked but we know that Mr. Jennings emphatically recalled doing so.

But nobody knows when. It might well be on his arrival to the OEM building. His recollection of looking on his arrival to the 8th floor might be wrong. ETA: And re-reading the part of his interview where he said he looked, it seems to me that when he said "because I looked", he was suddenly confused by his recollection and corrected himself and started talking about what he actually saw while on floor 8 (the WTC7 building as seen from the corner - one side visible, the other not).

 

[Norseman]

Really?

Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings both agreed they were trapped for more than an hour and a half.

In the part of Mr. Hess's interview they chose to use, the BBC interviewer asked Mr. Hess what he heard at a stage in the interview where Mr. Hess placed himself in the NE corner office on the 8th floor, and you quoted Mr. Hess's response.

We have no idea what Mr. Hess said in his interview from the point where he began his ascent from the 6th floor to the point where he answered the question based on what he heard and saw from the NE corner window which had been broken out by Mr. Jennings.

I've already agreed with you that the WTC towers had collapsed at that point.

Even though Mr. Jennings claimed he looked and saw the WTC twin towers still standing when he arrived at the 8th floor, the BBC never included any interview material addressing that sensational claim!

As a senior editor, I can assure you, I would have had a very heated exchange with my director for cutting such important testimony.

I am going to respond to your post at length here Miragememories, so please bear with me.

I find it very likely, that the last time Barry Jennings really saw the towers standing, was when he entered WTC 7 to go up to the Emergency Operations Center. And that he Just like Hess, assumed the towers were still standing when he got into Floor 8. He is not exactly very clear about what he saw in relation to the towers when he was inside the 8th floor. In the following I am quoting from the transcript you made of the interview that Louder Than Words did with Barry Jennings in 2007 (looks to me that you have done a good job with the transcription, very helpful).

This is what Barry Jennings says about what he could see from inside the 23rd floor:

Dylan Avery: "Did you hear that when it happened..the 2nd plane when it hit?"

Barry Jennings: "I couldn't tell you because I was inside and I was like closed off from everything.
Keep in mind, now, OEM, that big center, they had big gigantic TV screens and at that point, none of them were working.
So I didn't know what was going on on the outside."

As I pointed out in post #2294 earlier in the thread, Jennings is at this stage very likely mixing up the collapse of WTC 2 with Flight 175. It is obvious that they experienced something happening outside the building, and Hess mentioned that all the power went out in his radio interview later that day.

Clearly they could not see the towers from the EOC. Then they went down the stairwell, where they certainly not could see the towers, because the stairwell was located inside the core of the building.

On what he could see when he got into the 8th floor, Jennings says this in the first part of the interview:

And now I had to walk back up to the 8th floor."
"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark.
It was dark.
And it was very very hot.
VERY hot.
I asked Mr. Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows."
"Once I broke out the windows, I could see..outside below me.
I saw er..police cars..on fire..buses on fire.
Uh.
I looked one way.
The building was there. [WTC7]
I looked the other way.
It was gone.
um.

Here I agree with your interpretation that what Jennings meant with; "I look one way. The building was there, I looked the other way. It was gone." is in relation to WTC 7. This part has earlier confused me, in relation to what he actually meant with that statement. But it makes sense when considering it in relation to the fact that when WTC 1 collapsed, it ripped out a large part of the south face of WTC 7 close to the SW corner of the building. In the BBC interview(13:44) Jennings describes how he walked to one side of the building on floor 8th, and then describing that side as gone.

I think we have made a bit of progress here, with you agreeing that the northeast corner window on Floor 8 was not broken until after the collapse of WTC 1. But you still maintain that Jennings saw both towers standing after the event in the stairwell on the 6th floor. This implies that Hess and Jennings spent at least 30 minutes on Floor 8 before they broke the window, since the event in the stairwell must have occurred before 09:58 when WTC2 collapsed; with the window being broken after 10:28 when WTC 1 collapsed. Why couldn't they simply have walked over to the west stairwell and gotten out? I have earlier provided accounts of other people in the building using the stairs to escape from Floor 28 after the collapse of WTC 2.

And why would Jennings describe the floor as being dark when entering? There are large windows running around the whole floor, it should be more than enough light inside the floor. Wouldn't this be consistent with the dense dust cloud from the collapse of WTC 1 engulfing WTC 7, and being pushed into floor 8th through the opening caused by the collapse of WTC 1 near the southwest corner of the building?

And when I read/listen through this part of Jennings's description, it does not sound like they waited 30 minutes before the broke the window. I would say it sounds more like they did this immediately after they entered Floor 8 from the stairwell. And the scene Jennings describe seeing outside is consistent with the what the area below the northeast corner, looked like after the collapse of WTC 1, as I have shown earlier in the thread.

Next in the interview he says the following:

The firefighters came.
They came to the window.
And they..
Because I was going to come out on the firehose.
I didn't want to stay any longer
It was too hot.
I was gonna come out on the firehose.
They came--to the window and they said
They started yelling "do not do that..it won't hold you."
And then they ran away.
See, I didn't know what was going on.
That's when one..the first tower fell."
"When they started running..the first tower was coming down.
I had no..I had no way of knowing that.Then I saw them come back.
Now I saw them come back with more concern on their faces.
"And then they ran away again.
The second tower fell.
So as they turned and ran the second time,
the guy said "don't worry we'll be back for you."
And they did come back.
This time they came back with 10 firefighters.
um."

Back in post #2300 you agreed that Barry Jennings misinterpreted the activities of the rescuers below the window they had broken, to be in response to the collapse of the towers, since we both agree that the towers collapsed before they broke the window. At this stage it is quit clear that the towers now is only standing in the mind of Jennings. This is reasonable, because had he been able to look out the windows to the south, he would only have seen a tremendous amount of smoke where the towers should have been standing. And since he did not see them collapse himself, it would be very natural to think that they still were standing there on fire; just like Hess in the BBC interview.

Next Jennings describes all the explosions he could heare while on Floor 8. Something that would be consistent with things going boom in all the fires caused by the collapse of WTC 1.

Later on in the interview they revisits what Jennings experienced in the stairwell and on Floor 8. Just after he has described the "explosion" in the stairwell again, Jennings says this:

I said "there's only one thing we can do and that's go back up."
So that's when we went back up to the 8th floor and I busted out that window."

Again, does this sound to you like they waited at least 30 minutes on Floor 8 before they broke the window?

Further down in the interview they again talk about why Jennings believed the "explosion" on the 6th floor happened before either tower fell:

Dylan Avery: "Barry I'm sorry could you just wait for that chopper because this is vital!
Because the whole Official Story, the whole reason that Building 7 collapsed allegedly, was because the North Tower fell onto it and caused damage.
And what people are going to say, is they're going to say "Barry was hit by debris from the North Tower."

Barry Jennings: "No. What happened was - when we made it back to the 8th floor, --- as I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing because I looked -- [he points] Two [pauses] I look one way, look the other way -- now there's nothing there. When I got to the 6th floor there was an explosion that forced us back to the 8th floor.
Both buildings were still standing. Keep in mind, I told you the fire department came..and ran. They came twice.Why?
Because building tower 1 fell and then tower 2 fell.
And then when they came back, they came back, they came back all concerned like to get me the hell out of there.
And, and they did.
And we got out of there.

In the first part I have highlighted, Jennings is not exactly very clear about what he saw, in my view. Is he again talking about looking around inside Floor 8, and seeing parts of the building gone near the southwest corner as mentioned earlier in this post? Or does he mean with; "-- now there's nothing there" that he looked, but could not see anything of the towers because of all the smoke. Because in the next part I have highlighted, it sounds like it is the behavior of the firefighters that is his only visual clue, to his belief that the towers still were standing when he entered the 8th floor. And as we both agree, this is a misinterpretation by Jennings, since both towers already had collapsed at this stage.

I would say that the interview does not support your claim that Jennings really did see the towers standing from inside the 8th floor. Just like Hess; Barry Jennings thought that the towers where still standing there on fire, since he did not see them collapse with his own eyes. Because when we place the events of his ordeal inside WTC 7 into the overall context, of what happened that day in and around WTC7, it is quiet clear that towers collapsed while Jennings and Hess where inside the EOC on 23rd floor and in the stairwell; from where they could not have seen what was going on outside the building.

 

[tsig]

​

Really?

Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings both agreed they were trapped for more than an hour and a half.

In the part of Mr. Hess's interview they chose to use, the BBC interviewer asked Mr. Hess what he heard at a stage in the interview where Mr. Hess placed himself in the NE corner office on the 8th floor, and you quoted Mr. Hess's response.

We have no idea what Mr. Hess said in his interview from the point where he began his ascent from the 6th floor to the point where he answered the question based on what he heard and saw from the NE corner window which had been broken out by Mr. Jennings.

I've already agreed with you that the WTC towers had collapsed at that point.

Even though Mr. Jennings claimed he looked and saw the WTC twin towers still standing when he arrived at the 8th floor, the BBC never included any interview material addressing that sensational claim!

As a senior editor, I can assure you, I would have had a very heated exchange with my director for cutting such important testimony.

Right! If you ran the zoo the elephants would be gray instead of pink.

 

[jaydeehess]

The air quality prior to the explosion appeared to have made little impression on Mr. Jennings.

OK, so?

Unbreathable air in the aftermath of the explosion in the stairwell would be far more memorable than the breathable air that preceded it.

Yeah, again,so?

"Much more than it had been before.", fails to usefully characterize the "before" air quality.

When the "for three flights" is included, it emphatically indicates that he is saying that they have experienced something other than clear air as they got lower. Just as one would expect as a result of the collapse of WTC2.

Since their whole adventure was precipitated by an aircraft crash into 1 WTC, I would expect they would be greatly interested in the state of 1 WTC when they arrived at the 8th floor and were in a position to look at it.

No, their immediate circumstance would trump all other concerns. What would give them personal concern about the towers? They, like so many others , did not expect collapses. The condition of the towers offers zero aid or information useful to their own personal safety issue.

Especially given the unexpected consequences they found themselves victim to.

Yeah, those concerns would be the first and only task at hand.

Regretably, and very surprisingly, that was a line of questioning that the BBC neglected with both Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings, or if they did, they chose not to include those responses.

Setting aside your paranoid accusations it becomes much less regrettable.

It appears likely that Mr. Hess never looked but we know that Mr. Jennings emphatically recalled doing so.

No, we cannot even be sure Jennings could see the towers at anytime on the eighth floor.

 

[000063]

Yes, because the CT rulebook explicitly states that you may create a sufficient number of "in on it"s in order to make the theory work enough to continue the argument.

Cf. global warming, vaxx cause autism, etc.

ETA: Global warming denialism, that is

Including other conspiracy theorists, in fact. Clearly the space lasers truthers are just false flags to discredit the magic silent explosives faction.

 

[Miragememories]

So BBC did in fact include what you claim that they did not include.

Really?

Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings both agreed they were trapped for more than an hour and a half.

In the part of Mr. Hess's interview they chose to use, the BBC interviewer asked Mr. Hess what he heard at a stage in the interview where Mr. Hess placed himself in the NE corner office on the 8th floor, and you quoted Mr. Hess's response.

We have no idea what Mr. Hess said in his interview from the point where he began his ascent from the 6th floor to the point where he answered the question based on what he heard and saw from the NE corner window which had been broken out by Mr. Jennings.

I've already agreed with you that the WTC towers had collapsed at that point.

Even though Mr. Jennings claimed he looked and saw the WTC twin towers still standing when he arrived at the 8th floor, the BBC never included any interview material addressing that sensational claim!

As a senior editor, I can assure you, I would have had a very heated exchange with my director for cutting such important testimony.

"I find it very likely, that the last time Barry Jennings really saw the towers standing, was when he entered WTC 7 to go up to the Emergency Operations Center. And that he Just like Hess, assumed the towers were still standing when he got into Floor 8.

He is not exactly very clear about what he saw in relation to the towers when he was inside the 8th floor.

In the following I am quoting from the transcript you made of the interview that Louder Than Words did with Barry Jennings in 2007 (looks to me that you have done a good job with the transcription, very helpful).

This is what Barry Jennings says about what he could see from inside the 23rd floor:

"Did you hear that when it happened..the 2nd plane when it hit?"

"I couldn't tell you because I was inside and I was like closed off from everything.
Keep in mind, now, OEM, that big center, they had big gigantic TV screens and at that point, none of them were working.
So I didn't know what was going on on the outside."

"We are right now just off Broadway by City Hall with Michael Hess who is the city's corporation counsel.

Mr. Hess you were trapped in I believe 7 WTC. Go ahead sir."

"Yes I was. I was up in the Emergency Management Center on the 23rd floor..and when all the power went out in the building..ahh..another gentlemen and I walked down to the 8th floor [later corrected as meaning the 6th floor] where there was an explosion..and we'd been trapped on the 8th floor with smoke, thick smoke all around us for about an hour and a half. But the New York Fire Dept., as terrific as they are just came and got us out."

"As I pointed out in post #2294 earlier in the thread, Jennings is at this stage very likely mixing up the collapse of WTC 2 with Flight 175.

It is obvious that they experienced something happening outside the building, and Hess mentioned that all the power went out in his radio interview later that day."

Your quote from Mr. Jenning's account above reveals no occurrence of a power outage.

In response to the interviewer's question about hearing the 2nd plane hit, he speculates on an unknown, but obviously he is aware from watching the News later that the 2nd attack occurred while he was in 7 WTC.

If he was experiencing the collapse of 2 WTC at this time, he should have experienced much more than just inactive TV monitors.

Mr. Jennings said the OEC was closed off from everything.

Mr. Hess's account differs from that of Mr. Jenning's and FEMA's.

If there was an enduring total power failure, it was news to both Mr. Jennings and FEMA.

"Con Ed reported that “the feeders supplying power to WTC 7 were de-energized at 9:59 a.m.” It is believed that the emergency generators came on line immediately."

Additionally, from their 23rd floor location, halfway up 7 WTC, Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings should have experienced more than just a loss of lighting.

Mr. Hess, who in his BBC interview made great play of the 5-10 seconds of building shake he believed was caused by 1 WTC's collapse, apparently experienced none of this while alone with Mr. Jennings in the silent OEC.

"...On what he could see when he got into the 8th floor, Jennings says this in the first part of the interview:

And now I had to walk back up to the 8th floor."
"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark.
It was dark.
And it was very very hot.
VERY hot.
I asked Mr. Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows."
"Once I broke out the windows, I could see..outside below me.
I saw er..police cars..on fire..buses on fire.
Uh.
I looked one way.
The building was there. [WTC7]
I looked the other way.
It was gone.
um.

"Here I agree with your interpretation that what Jennings meant with; "I look one way. The building was there, I looked the other way. It was gone." is in relation to WTC 7. This part has earlier confused me, in relation to what he actually meant with that statement. But it makes sense when considering it in relation to the fact that when WTC 1 collapsed, it ripped out a large part of the south face of WTC 7 close to the SW corner of the building. In the BBC interview(13:44) Jennings describes how he walked to one side of the building on floor 8th, and then describing that side as gone."

Now that I have had more time to reconsider that statement by Mr. Jennings, I am less sure of what he meant and where he meant it.

His chronology of events when he gets to the 8th floor is confused, as you pointed out, by his attempt to make sense of what he observed, with what he later saw on the TV News.

He walks up 2 flights to the 8th floor. OK

At some point "after" getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark. Note he did not say "when" he got to the 8th floor, having just exited an already dark stairwell.

"After getting to the 8th floor", suggests to me that when they exited the darkened stairwell to the 8th floor, there was light, but it became dark sometime after their arrival.

When the power did go out and a/c gone, with some fire activity in the mostly sealed building on a ~70F sunny day, it would be expected to become increasing hot.

But, we do not know the order of events here and how much time passed between them.

I would argue that Mr. Jennings did not immediately start smashing windows with a fire extinguisher.

When he did so, it was at some point in time after it grew excessively hot and the floor became dark.

All this time he recalled hearing explosions, which unbeknownst to him, were likely from the WTC twin tower collapses.

Upon breaking the window in the NE corner office, Mr. Jennings was able to observe the aftermath of the fallen WTC twin towers.

So what did he mean by;
"I looked one way. The building was there. I looked the other way. It was gone."

Certainly if he looked one way and saw one of the twin towers and then looked away, he would no longer see it. By itself, that statement sounds so obvious it is pointless.

But considering his proclivity for ignoring time passage, a more likely interpretation of what he meant, is that when Mr. Jennings arrived at the 8th floor ("as I told you earlier"), "I looked one way. The building was there."

And then later on after observing the "..police cars..on fire..buses on fire.", Mr. Jennings looked again and both the WTC twin towers were gone.

Hence;

"I looked the other way. It was gone."

Regrettably, the interviewers did not have time to clarify this point with more in depth questioning.

"I think we have made a bit of progress here, with you agreeing that the northeast corner window on Floor 8 was not broken until after the collapse of WTC 1. But you still maintain that Jennings saw both towers standing after the event in the stairwell on the 6th floor. This implies that Hess and Jennings spent at least 30 minutes on Floor 8 before they broke the window, since the event in the stairwell must have occurred before 09:58 when WTC2 collapsed; with the window being broken after 10:28 when WTC 1 collapsed. Why couldn't they simply have walked over to the west stairwell and gotten out? I have earlier provided accounts of other people in the building using the stairs to escape from Floor 28 after the collapse of WTC 2."

That is a good question.

I can only speculate. Maybe they were concerned that the other stairwell was in the same condition or worse.

Maybe they didn't know about, or look, for the second stairwell.

Maybe they did try the other stairwell and found it too dark to risk a descent.

Unfortunately none of the people who interviewed Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess asked that question, or if they did, bothered to publicly share their findings.

It would be great if the BBC were to post online the complete uncut interviews they did with Mr. Hess and Mr. Jennings.

"And why would Jennings describe the floor as being dark when entering?

There are large windows running around the whole floor, it should be more than enough light inside the floor.

Wouldn't this be consistent with the dense dust cloud from the collapse of WTC 1 engulfing WTC 7, and being pushed into floor 8th through the opening caused by the collapse of WTC 1 near the southwest corner of the building?"

I responded to that question.

It was not already dark when they arrived at the 8th floor but it did become dark when 7 WTC was engulfed by the massive dust clouds created by the collapsing WTC twin towers.

"And when I read/listen through this part of Jennings's description, it does not sound like they waited 30 minutes before the broke the window.

I would say it sounds more like they did this immediately after they entered Floor 8 from the stairwell.

And the scene Jennings describe seeing outside is consistent with the what the area below the northeast corner, looked like after the collapse of WTC 1, as I have shown earlier in the thread."

Well, of course you are entitled to believe that which you wish to believe.

By their own reckoning, a lot of time passed between their arrival on the 8th floor and when Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess were rescued.

The interview with Mr. Jennings leaves a great deal of time unaccounted for in terms of how he and Mr. Hess were occupied.

For example Mr. Jennings emphatically states he looked and saw the WTC twin towers still standing after he arrived at the 8th floor but he does provide further details.

For instance, where and how much time did he spend walking to a spot where he made this observation? We know it could not have been from his stairwell exit point on the north side of 7 WTC.

So many questions. So few clear answers.

"Next in the interview he says the following:

"The firefighters came.
They came to the window.
And they..
Because I was going to come out on the firehose.
I didn't want to stay any longer
It was too hot.
I was gonna come out on the firehose.
They came--to the window and they said
They started yelling "do not do that..it won't hold you."
And then they ran away.
See, I didn't know what was going on.
That's when one..the first tower fell."
"When they started running..the first tower was coming down.
I had no..I had no way of knowing that.Then I saw them come back.
Now I saw them come back with more concern on their faces.
"And then they ran away again.
The second tower fell.
So as they turned and ran the second time,
the guy said "don't worry we'll be back for you."
And they did come back.
This time they came back with 10 firefighters.
um."

"Back in post #2300 you agreed that Barry Jennings misinterpreted the activities of the rescuers below the window they had broken, to be in response to the collapse of the towers, since we both agree that the towers collapsed before they broke the window.

At this stage it is quit clear that the towers now is only standing in the mind of Jennings.

This is reasonable, because had he been able to look out the windows to the south, he would only have seen a tremendous amount of smoke where the towers should have been standing. And since he did not see them collapse himself, it would be very natural to think that they still were standing there on fire; just like Hess in the BBC interview.

I agreed that when Mr. Jennings looked from the broken NE window, that based on what he described and the photo evidence you provided, the WTC twin towers must have already collapsed.

Based on Mr. Jennings statement, at this time he was still unaware of what had caused the destruction he saw below from his location in a NE corner office of 7 WTC.

So, of course his last memory of the WTC twin towers would still be of them standing.

"Next Jennings describes all the explosions he could heare while on Floor 8. Something that would be consistent with things going boom in all the fires caused by the collapse of WTC 1.

Maybe. You are entitled to your opinion.

Also consistent with the collapsing WTC twin towers.

Let us not forget that the first explosion Mr. Jennings reported was the one that destroyed the 6th floor stairwell landing.

"Later on in the interview they revisits what Jennings experienced in the stairwell and on Floor 8. Just after he has described the "explosion" in the stairwell again, Jennings says this:

"I said "there's only one thing we can do and that's go back up."
So that's when we went back up to the 8th floor and I busted out that window."

"Again, does this sound to you like they waited at least 30 minutes on Floor 8 before they broke the window?

It sounds like the description of two actions spaced by an unspecified period of time.

Mr. Jennings is simply listing highlights without clarifying their time of occurrence.

"Further down in the interview they again talk about why Jennings believed the "explosion" on the 6th floor happened before either tower fell:

"Barry I'm sorry could you just wait for that chopper because this is vital!
Because the whole Official Story, the whole reason that Building 7 collapsed allegedly, was because the North Tower fell onto it and caused damage.
And what people are going to say, is they're going to say "Barry was hit by debris from the North Tower."

"No. What happened was - when we made it back to the 8th floor, --- as I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing because I looked -- [he points] Two [pauses] I look one way, look the other way -- now there's nothing there.When I got to the 6th floor there was an explosion that forced us back to the 8th floor.
Both buildings were still standing. Keep in mind, I told you the fire department came..and ran. They came twice.Why?
Because building tower 1 fell and then tower 2 fell.
And then when they came back, they came back, they came back all concerned like to get me the hell out of there.
And, and they did.
And we got out of there.

"In the first part I have highlighted, Jennings is not exactly very clear about what he saw, in my view.

Is he again talking about looking around inside Floor 8, and seeing parts of the building gone near the southwest corner as mentioned earlier in this post?

Or does he mean with; "-- now there's nothing there" that he looked, but could not see anything of the towers because of all the smoke.

Because in the next part I have highlighted, it sounds like it is the behavior of the firefighters that is his only visual clue, to his belief that the towers still were standing when he entered the 8th floor.

And as we both agree, this is a misinterpretation by Jennings, since both towers already had collapsed at this stage.

I think Mr. Jennings is very clear! which is why I assign so much importance to his statement.

"as I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing because I looked"

There is nothing in the least vague about that assertion.

I did agree with you that, given that Mr. Jennings was unaware of the collapses at that point in time, and since he would only learn about the collapses later, he remained confused about the meaning of what he observed from the broken window.

His being unaware of when the collapses occurred combined with his memory of the firefighters activities lead him to a misinterpretation of their actions.

He never said that he took a second look to see if both buildings were still standing.

Like most people, especially those who never got to observe the collapses, he never would have expected that such a catastrophe would happen.

"I would say that the interview does not support your claim that Jennings really did see the towers standing from inside the 8th floor.

Just like Hess; Barry Jennings thought that the towers where still standing there on fire, since he did not see them collapse with his own eyes.

Because when we place the events of his ordeal inside WTC 7 into the overall context, of what happened that day in and around WTC7, it is quiet clear that towers collapsed while Jennings and Hess where inside the EOC on 23rd floor and in the stairwell; from where they could not have seen what was going on outside the building.

And I would have to respectfully disagree for the reasons I have presented.