You've finally asked a good question here. I would extend that question further to ask if the lights on floor 6 and floor 8 were on the same circuit?
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You've finally asked a good question here. I would extend that question further to ask if the lights on floor 6 and floor 8 were on the same circuit?
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Same feeder maybe.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
So Jennings thought the only outside problem was a small plane having flown into WTC1. He also thought that everything he was experiencing only involved WTC7.
Did not realise the seriousness of his situation so was hesitant to break windows.
No thought to the coincidence of the incident in WTC1 and the evacuation of WTC7. Did not see seriousness in having experienced what he considered an explosion having occurred in a building he was ordered out of after discovering the OEM had been evacuated.
Really??
I'm not a particularly skittish guy but if I'm ordered to leave immediately right after discoveting that i and my companion may be the only people still in the building, I would try the elevator first. If they don't work I take the stairs. if I then experience an explosion, choking dust and total darkness and have to grope my way back up the stairs to another floor, well as far as the societal taboo about breaking windows I'm saying "#### it, I want out, and a window is toast. They can add the cost of the window to the tab of the people who set the explosion off".
But that's me. Perhaps others would saunter about checking what people in financial offices put on their desks.
Did not realise the seriousness of his situation so was hesitant to break windows.
No thought to the coincidence of the incident in WTC1 and the evacuation of WTC7. Did not see seriousness in having experienced what he considered an explosion having occurred in a building he was ordered out of after discovering the OEM had been evacuated.
Really??
I'm not a particularly skittish guy but if I'm ordered to leave immediately right after discoveting that i and my companion may be the only people still in the building, I would try the elevator first. If they don't work I take the stairs. if I then experience an explosion, choking dust and total darkness and have to grope my way back up the stairs to another floor, well as far as the societal taboo about breaking windows I'm saying "#### it, I want out, and a window is toast. They can add the cost of the window to the tab of the people who set the explosion off".
But that's me. Perhaps others would saunter about checking what people in financial offices put on their desks.
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jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
I'm in a hurry again but let me address this quickly.
I also insist that instead of wandering around the 8th floor for more than half an hour, with the stairs broken, anyone in the situation of Jennings and Hess would have tried the (fully functioning before WTC2 collapse) elevators, and in their situation, given the other exits were blocked, your argument to avoid the elevators doesn't hold water. If you call the elevator from the 1st floor and it comes, chances are it will work the other way and let you escape.
And I also insist that it's ridiculous to claim the staircase air was full of smoke due to fires started by the 2nd plane impact, while no one else claims difficulty to breath anywhere else inside the building before the WTC2 collapse.
I find your arguments in the contrary lacking in any substance.
I am suggesting that given their location within the building, all these people should have noticed the explosion you say occurred below floor 6 by the time Jennings and Hess arrived there.
I also insist that instead of wandering around the 8th floor for more than half an hour, with the stairs broken, anyone in the situation of Jennings and Hess would have tried the (fully functioning before WTC2 collapse) elevators, and in their situation, given the other exits were blocked, your argument to avoid the elevators doesn't hold water. If you call the elevator from the 1st floor and it comes, chances are it will work the other way and let you escape.
And I also insist that it's ridiculous to claim the staircase air was full of smoke due to fires started by the 2nd plane impact, while no one else claims difficulty to breath anywhere else inside the building before the WTC2 collapse.
I find your arguments in the contrary lacking in any substance.
There was some progress for a while. MM conceded Jennings and Hess can't have arrived before the WTC2 impact, then conceded that J broke the window after the tower collapses.
But then he took the surreal step of presuming this must mean J+H spent 30 minutes on floor 8 without finding another way out or noticing or remarking on the collapses.
So, yeah, faced with such inventive intractibility there is no point really.
Why do you refer to AA Flight 11 as a "small plane"?
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That was the original belief when J was directed to the OEM. Now, how long he retained that belief is unclear, but arriving to a FSM-awful mess at WTC7 and with first responders showing him around I'd imagine it was a very short time indeed.
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Miragememories
Banned
I think this is a better question;
Do you think you could be possibly wrong about your apparent belief that Mr. Jennings did not see the WTC twin towers standing after the 6th floor explosion?
If you do not believe you could be possibly wrong, than you have chosen to allow your beliefs to override what an eyewitness claims to have observed.
All your hand waving and circumstantial evidence aside;
He was there.
You were not.
Just as I corrected my timeline belief when presented with solid photographic evidence by Norseman, if you can demonstrate proof of equal certainty, that at the time when Mr. Jennings arrived at the 8th floor, the WTC twin towers could not have been standing, I will admit I was wrong to believe in what Mr. Jennings claimed.
Not only would it be extremely unlikely that the floor lighting for floors 6 and floor 8 would be handled by a single circuit breaker, I am sure it would be a serious code violation. In a building with floors the size of a football field, it would require a breaker with an unimaginably high amperage rating.
You have made a lot of absurd statements jaydee but that one ranks high in the list.
With that kind of blind response to the serious events inside 7 WTC, that Mr. Jennings described, it is no wonder you understand so little of what really happened on 9/11.
The 23rd floor was not the whole building.
Like you said, that is you.
As an administrator involved in emergency procedures, I am not in the least surprised that Mr. Jennings followed standard evacuation protocol and took the stairs.
If the power fails, the stairs are a safer bet than being trapped inside of an elevator.
Even Mike Catalano ordered his staff to not use the working elevators and take the stairs, and he had just witnessed the attack on 2 WTC which Mr. Jennings did not.
Again, as an administrator, who had no idea of the serious situation outside of 7 WTC, much of Mr. Jennings behaviour when he arrived at the 8th floor was not too surprising.
Aside from asking Mr. Hess to test the phones, I have no idea how the two men spent the minimum 30 minutes before Mr. Jennings smashed windows and saw the results of the WTC twin tower collapses.
Following the lights going out, the explosions, the smoke, and the increasing heat, no doubt Mr. Jennings lost any inhibitions about smashing windows.
What I believe is that Mr. Jennings sincerely believed he saw both the WTC twin towers still standing after he experienced that explosion at the 6th floor stairwell landing.
If you had been following this thread you would know that I am not referring to AA Flight 11 as a small plane.
Mr. Jennings said:
Until he was rescued a few hours later, Mr. Jenning's only news from outside of 7 WTC was that scrap of misinformation he received in the original phone call.
Miragememories
Banned
Mr. Jennings said:
I will point out that "quiet", does not have the same meaning as "quite".
For the purpose of example;
This repeated error might explain your confusion or misunderstanding of how "after" does not have the same meaning as "when".
After, it was.
af.ter
preposition
during the period of time following (an event)
Mr. Jennings said:
Translation of Mr. Jenning's statement:
During the period of time following my arrival at the 8th floor, everything was dark.
dur.ing
preposition
at a particular point in the course of
Further translation of Mr. Jenning's statement:
At a particular point in the period of time following my arrival at the 8th floor, everything was dark.
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
Nope, you fail on English.
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2009
- Messages
- 18,903
Seriously??
You translate "After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark." with "At a particular point in the period of time following my arrival at the 8th floor, everything was dark."??
That's plain wrong! "Was" is the past simple (preterite) of "to be", which often denotes a past state. However, since the past progressive of "to be" ("was being") is practically never used in practical English and mostly substituted by the past simple, a more correct translation of Jenning's statement would be:
"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was (already) being dark."
So it being dark on the 8th floor is described as the state that he experienced the 8th floor to have all the time after he got there, and that logically implies that it was already being dark when he got there, or else he would have mentioned the coincidence of it becoming dark just as he got there.
A state of being does imply no change during the time interval covered by the speech.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
You have been supplied with the statements of several others in WTC7 who's recounting of events would have to be wrong for Jennings to be correct. Thus the preponderance of evidence is against Jennings having seen both towers standing when he was on the eighth floor.
All circuits have current protection devices no matter the current. If you walk out your front door you might see them attached to the lines that supply your street. You are correct though, high amperage lines may well have fuses rather than breakers. Not a particularly important distinction though.
The name of the office was the "Office of Emergency Management". Rather suggests that in time of emergency, it would be the last office manned in the building. If its been ordered evacuated then something very serious is threatening that particular building and its pretty obvious that if that office is evacuated then the rest of the offices are too. Its really a no-brainer, or so I thought. You seem to personally indicate I was wrong on that.
So, Jennings and Hess are ordered out, its a fairly easy bet that if the OEM has been abandoned then the entire building has been evacuated. They take to the stairs. You say Jennings is so concerned that he is running down them. Then they experience the building shake for 5-10 seconds while the lights go out and the stairs fill with choking dust and they grope their way to the eighth floor. Despite the fact that they were bent on getting out and have now just escaped a terrifying event only two floors below them, they wander about the eighth floor apparently no longer feeling the urgency to get out. At least not enough so to overcome a societal no-no about breaking windows.
Now according to you the window was broken ( and I use the singular since I believe that his use of the plural refers to the fact that the window is double or triple pane) at the very earliest, between collapses, possibly after both collapses. In the former case one would expect a similar experience as Catalano had a few floors below. Maybe less dust if the windows didn't break. You complain that J and H don't
If the NE window was broken after the collapse of WTC1 then they did experience a large number, if not all, of the south face windows breaking and an even greater shaking of the building as columns, some at the eighth floor level, being violently ripped away, and an even greater amount of choking dust and an enveloping darkness. Yet again, despite the fact that you complain that while on the 23rd floor Jennings and Hess make no comment about the building shaking, here they most definitely would have ( assuming it occurs while they are on the eighth floor) experienced the most terrifying experience of all and say not a word about it other than, at least in your supposition, that they "heard" continuing explosions.
It stretches the imagination to the point of ridiculousness, MM.
I'll give you that. Jennings apparently was taking this a lot more seriously than he was on the ride up in the elevator. How much time passed between the ride up and the decision that elevators were not to be trusted any more?
I know you have no answer for why the immediacy of getting out of the building became less urgent after they experienced darkness, a shaking skyscraper and choking dust. That's because such a reaction doesn't make any sense and therefore logic dictates that the urgency was not lessened and that the window was broken very soon after they reached the eighth floor.
.
The first of these events, according to Jennings and you, ( and the only timebitvrayed much comment) occurred at the sixth floor landing. Like I said " #### it, I'm breaking a window and calling for assistance in getting my carcass out of the building asap!" But I'm not a fearless administrator.
He may well have believed in fairies and Narnia. We are not debating what he believed. We are debating what was. OTOH we know he experienced this skyscraper shaking, according to Hess it did so for several seconds. We know they experienced choking dust and the lights going out. We know it "was" hot. All of these occurred in a building which they were told to leave, from an empty office that is manned, normally, in times of emergency ( the very reason they were called out of their daily jobs), and came upon no one else while going down fifteen flights. Even if Jennings looked and believed he saw both towers standing, that would in no way at all reduce the urgency of getting out of the building he was in.
That's more of why you cannot come up with any reason for laying about for thirty minutes before overcoming a taboo about breaking windows and calling for assistance.
So what? How does that overcome a sense of urgency to get out of a building that has been evacuated and in which they have experienced loss of power, choking dust, and a horrific shaking lasting several seconds, not once, not twice, but by your timeline they would have had happen three times? What's happening outside is concerning perhaps but it takes a backseat to what's happening to them!
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DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Yes but, I've seen no evidence that leads to the conclusion he could have.
I believe this also. I see no reason to believe he would lie. I think he's just mistaken in his recollection.
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jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Seriously??
You translate "After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark." with "At a particular point in the period of time following my arrival at the 8th floor, everything was dark."??
That's plain wrong! "Was" is the past simple (preterite) of "to be", which often denotes a past state. However, since the past progressive of "to be" ("was being") is practically never used in practical English and mostly substituted by the past simple, a more correct translation of Jenning's statement would be:
"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was (already) being dark."
So it being dark on the 8th floor is described as the state that he experienced the 8th floor to have all the time after he got there, and that logically implies that it was already being dark when he got there, or else he would have mentioned the coincidence of it becoming dark just as he got there.
A state of being does imply no change during the time interval covered by the speech.
It was dark in the stairwell, and upon attaining entrance to the eighth floor it was still dark. An unexpected and comment worthy discovery.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Frankly had Jennings seen the towers gone he may well have assumed the worst was over and felt some small relief that the events he experienced did not originate from problems within WTC7.
Yes.
Although my only formal qualification in English is an RSA Dip TEFL and several years teaching English (EFL), I find his statement muddy at best.
After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark.
is a little unclear, though I'd take it to mean that was the condition when he arrived.
After getting to the 8th floor everything became dark
and
When I got to the 8th floor everything was dark
are both unambiguous. But I ran it by MrsB who taught English language for nearly 40 years, in the form "After I woke it was raining" and she quickly recognised it as a somewhat messy statement that could only reasonably be taken to mean "It was raining when I woke".
But the big question is how anyone can make their CT beliefs depend on such trivial matters. Nothing Jennings said is trustworthy, from start to finish.
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TJM
Potsing Whiled Runk
You might want to try the papamundi thread then. Seems the *********** pope did 9/11. Might be some comedic value happening there.
Miragememories
Banned
In the space of 4 short sentences Mr. Jennings collapses time to the extent that if you didn't know better you would assume his whole ordeal was over in a matter of minutes.
The first time he tells it, he reaches the 8th floor, asks Mr. Hess to test the phones and he breaks out the windows and sees the destructive aftermath left by the collapses of the WTC twin towers.
When he goes over his story a second time, he collapses time even more.
Obviously he is so familiar with his own story, after no doubt telling it repeatedly over the last several years, that he keeps 'cutting to the chase'.
Rather than drearily go over the tedious chronology of events for the umpteenth time, he attempts to hilite the items that he believes would be of interest to the camera.
A lot of mundane stuff must have happened to the two men when they arrived at the 8th floor.
Better interviewers would have plied Mr. Jennings with questions which would have compelled him to methodically go over the series of events that transpired.
Unfortunately, they gave him too much free rein and little, to no direction.
Keep in mind, the things he did observe have not been proven to be untrue. The biggest problem is that the interviewers failed to get enough details out of him.
Realizing that his meandering wasn't making it clear how he knew that the WTC twin towers were still standing, his interviewers explain to him how important it is that he explain why he can be so sure.
Even though he said "after", you can believe it was already dark if you want, when Mr. Jennings first arrived at the 8th floor.
If when is what you believe, than obviously Mr. Jennings could not have seen the WTC twin towers still standing.
It also means that when Mr. Jennings was on the 23rd floor, he somehow did not notice, or did not feel, that the horrific effects of 2 WTC's collapse to be worth highlighting for the camera.
It also means that in spite of his saying he was hurrying down the stairs, leaping landings, that he either took an incredibly long time to find the stairs, lied, did not respond immediately to his orders to evacuate from a superior, or took numerous long rest periods going down stairs that others have descended in a few minutes.
It also means that he did not notice the horrific sustained building shake that others observed when 1 WTC collapsed.
And, it also means that debris from 1 WTC, unbeknownst to the NIST researchers, managed to reach far inside 7 WTC, passed columns and concrete elevator shaft walls to destroy the 6th floor landing.
I find those beliefs to be far too incredible a basis for saying Mr. Jennings was mistaken about seeing the WTC twin towers still standing when he arrived at the 8th floor.
The first time he tells it, he reaches the 8th floor, asks Mr. Hess to test the phones and he breaks out the windows and sees the destructive aftermath left by the collapses of the WTC twin towers.
Mr. Jennings said:
When he goes over his story a second time, he collapses time even more.
Mr. Jennings said:
Obviously he is so familiar with his own story, after no doubt telling it repeatedly over the last several years, that he keeps 'cutting to the chase'.
Rather than drearily go over the tedious chronology of events for the umpteenth time, he attempts to hilite the items that he believes would be of interest to the camera.
A lot of mundane stuff must have happened to the two men when they arrived at the 8th floor.
Better interviewers would have plied Mr. Jennings with questions which would have compelled him to methodically go over the series of events that transpired.
Unfortunately, they gave him too much free rein and little, to no direction.
Keep in mind, the things he did observe have not been proven to be untrue. The biggest problem is that the interviewers failed to get enough details out of him.
Realizing that his meandering wasn't making it clear how he knew that the WTC twin towers were still standing, his interviewers explain to him how important it is that he explain why he can be so sure.
[Cutoff by helicopter passing overhead]Mr. Jennings said:
Interviewer said:
[He repeats again.]Mr. Jennings said:
Mr. Jennings said:
Even though he said "after", you can believe it was already dark if you want, when Mr. Jennings first arrived at the 8th floor.
If when is what you believe, than obviously Mr. Jennings could not have seen the WTC twin towers still standing.
It also means that when Mr. Jennings was on the 23rd floor, he somehow did not notice, or did not feel, that the horrific effects of 2 WTC's collapse to be worth highlighting for the camera.
It also means that in spite of his saying he was hurrying down the stairs, leaping landings, that he either took an incredibly long time to find the stairs, lied, did not respond immediately to his orders to evacuate from a superior, or took numerous long rest periods going down stairs that others have descended in a few minutes.
It also means that he did not notice the horrific sustained building shake that others observed when 1 WTC collapsed.
And, it also means that debris from 1 WTC, unbeknownst to the NIST researchers, managed to reach far inside 7 WTC, passed columns and concrete elevator shaft walls to destroy the 6th floor landing.
I find those beliefs to be far too incredible a basis for saying Mr. Jennings was mistaken about seeing the WTC twin towers still standing when he arrived at the 8th floor.
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