'What about building 7'?

[pgimeno]

So it looks very much like the generators continued to operate until WTC 1 collapsed.

I think it's likely that some took fire and some managed to work.

The impact of Flight 11 caused short circuits that tripped two of the breakers, Flight 175 tripped another two. And the collapse of WTC 2 tripped the last remaining breakers, leaving the complex without line power from the ConEd station, including WTC 7, stalling the elevator Jennings and Hess were going to take down from the EOC.

That makes perfect sense.

 

[GlennB]

Sounds all very familiar. Its analogue is the truther parsing of the collapse of WTC7 to ignore the first ten seconds.

And manages to suggest it was a one block trip. In fact it was about 2.5 plus the distance from their parking spot to the corner of Vesey.

 

[GlennB]

I think it's likely that some took fire and some managed to work.

That makes perfect sense.

And is confirmed by Otis engineers Flanagan and Klaum, resident at WTC7, who had to rescue passengers stuck in lifts after the WTC2 collapse.

 

[GlennB]

. The driving distance, along the route described by Drury, from 9 Metrotech to where they parked is about 3,6 km. If they managed an average speed of 80 km/h that distance could be covered in about 5 minutes.

I realise you're being as generous as possible with the timeline here, but in fact rush-hour traffic in the area typically averages no more than a brisk jogging pace.

Their road route from the middle of the bridge to the chapel I measured as ~1600 m on Google Earth. 1 mile. At 8mph that's ~7 minutes. Put them on the bridge at 9:05 (generously early) and they're at the chapel at 9:12. Then 2.5 blocks to make on foot facing panicking evacuating people headed away from WTC along Vesey. 10 minutes if they're lucky? That's 9:22 at the foot of the building and about 9:27 at the OEM. Given no allowance for unusual traffic snarlups caused by the mass of first-responder vehicles flooding the area, this timeline pretty much fits in with the witness testimony.

There's no reason to doubt the quoted evacuation time for the OEM.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Which you know is absolute bull **** but if I take the bait, it'll be good for another page or two of you evading the questions that destroy your fantasy.

Seriously.

Give it a rest.

This idea that the witness testimony can be twisted to his convenience. Or the idea that he can disregard his burden of proof whilst also demanding an exceedingly higher burden from the peers. The arguments have been repeated enough that I basically know how he'll "rebut" them from past history.

We're paid shills, we can't bear the thought that our government would do something so evil... We are subject to high burdens of proof while they are exempt, etc. That's the premise off which he's arguing. I... just don't bother anymore. It's an irreconcilable delusion that's not worth the effort to deal with in 2014... maybe it was in 2006 or 2004 but... even those being patient enough to give a reasoned debate - while I applaud - are being forced to rehash tid bits that in the last 13 years had to have come up at some point.

 

[Animal]

MM needs to watch Mythbusters. They conclusively busted the idea that one could get knocked about by an explosive shockwave and survive. If the overpressure doesn't kill you, the shrapnel and debris absolutely would. If you were far enough away to survive, you wouldn't get knocked about.

Have to disagree with you on this one (and I have seen mythbusters make other declarations that were completely wrong because of the poor methodology) My dad, in WWII, was knocked off his feet by an exploding Japanese artillery and lived to tell about it....

 

[ProBonoShill]

This idea that the witness testimony can be twisted to his convenience. Or the idea that he can disregard his burden of proof whilst also demanding an exceedingly higher burden from the peers. The arguments have been repeated enough that I basically know how he'll "rebut" them from past history.

MM's posting history is one giant Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

He's doing the same thing here as he's done several times in the past. One only has to look at his failure regarding Lloyde England's witness account at the Pentagon to realize he's doing the same thing here.

He's an expert at special pleading, logic not so much.

 

[thedopefishlives]

Have to disagree with you on this one (and I have seen mythbusters make other declarations that were completely wrong because of the poor methodology) My dad, in WWII, was knocked off his feet by an exploding Japanese artillery and lived to tell about it....

The point is well taken, although the circumstances there were likely not the same as what MM is proposing happened.

 

[DGM]

One thing's for sure. Being that close to any high order explosive inside a building would leave you deaf (atleast for a while).

 

[Miragememories]

"Neither of them saw Flight 175 hitting WTC 2, they only noticed that it was on fire when they were driving over the Brooklyn Bridge. Zarrilo just think it happened while they were driving across the bridge, and he is not sure of the time."

You are stating an assumption as if it were a fact.

With regard to Richard Zarrillo, the only somewhat accurate time reference to his whereabouts, was the time of the attack on 2 WTC [9:02 am].

Though he does not elaborate, he felt he had reason to state where he was when the plane hit 2 WTC. Unlike Mr. Drury who was driving, Richard Zarillo, as an unencumbered passenger with a vested interest in focusing all his attention on the emergency in the WTC up ahead, was in an excellent position to see the second plane crash.

Note his uncertainty relates to where the car was with respect to seeing the aircraft impact 2 WTC.

"I'm not sure of the exact time, but I believe as we were coming over the Brooklyn Bridge was when the second plane hit the second tower."

Note that he says "when the second plane hit the second tower".

Mr Drury, who was driving, with his emergency lights flashing, and at a speed it seems reasonable to assume was above the limit, did note that 2 WTC was on fire but did not observe it being hit by a plane. With his eyes on the road, this is not too surprising.

"...we headed over the Brooklyn Bridge, where we could see both towers now on fire."

"Zarrillo says that 5-10 minutes after this they were ordered to evacuate.

The clock would then be between 9:23 and 9:28.

But if we are going to make a realistic time estimate. We can not only look at the lowest realistic timetable, we also have to take into account that Zarrillo could be underestimating his estimates.

When you are working intensely on something, the time flies much faster than you think.

So when Zarrillo says 5-10 minutes it could just as well be 10-15 minutes, or maybe 15-20 minutes.

Suddenly the time for the evacuation is between 9:28 and 9:33, or 9:33 and 9:38; consistent with the conclusions of NIST and other Reports. Or maybe they left 9 Metrotech even later than 9:03."

Unfortunately, here you begin to allow biased speculation to contradict Richard Zarrillo's testimony.

"Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there's a third plane inbound."

Richard Zarrillo's statement, shows that he is certain that it was a very short period of time. There is nothing to suggest that in his time guesstimate that he believes it could have been greater than 10 minutes.

 

[DGM]

Richard Zarrillo's statement, shows that he is certain that it was a very short period of time. There is nothing to suggest that in his time guesstimate that he believes it could have been greater than 10 minutes.

For completeness of what he meant and where he was at the time.

I'm not sure of the exact time, but I believe as we were coming over the Brooklyn Bridge was when the second plane hit the second tower. We parked -- I want to say it's on like Broadway right off of Vesey Street, between Vesey and Barclay.
Captain Nahmod and I started heading down Vesey Street towards where we thought the command post would be. At that time we had received a page per Chief Peruggia to go into OEM at No. 7 World Trade and activate our post in OEM.
Captain Nahmod and I were running down Vesey Street
stepping over airplane pieces, several bodies and whatnot.
Abdo and I went into No. 7, activated OEM, placed calls to EMS,Citywide,RCC, to tell them we were there and we were activated. Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there's a third plane
inbound.

MM wants us to believe they were out of the OEM by when?

ETA: It's also worth noting they were not heading straight to the OEM. This sounds like they headed somewhere near WFC first (past Verizon building) and doubled back.

 

[DGM]

There is no way to shoe-horn Mr Jennings making two trips to the OEM, finding it empty, making a few calls, leaving down to the 6th floor then back up to the 8th before the buildings collapse (atleast not before the South Tower). They would have to be sprinting the whole time.

 

[GlennB]

"Driving over the speed limit" makes me laugh. Apart from the remains of commuter traffic, every fire crew, ambulance and cop in NY and beyond was heading that way (check the videos) and the very roads were heaving with people. Drury/Zarillo (can't remember which) commented on the chaos on Broadway.

 

[JayUtah]

"Driving over the speed limit" makes me laugh.

Indeed. Having driven in NYC under normal traffic, I can't imagine ever getting up to the speed limit.

 

[pgimeno]

There is no way to shoe-horn Mr Jennings making two trips to the OEM, finding it empty, making a few calls, leaving down to the 6th floor then back up to the 8th before the buildings collapse (atleast not before the South Tower). They would have to be sprinting the whole time.

That, and they found the stairway full of smoke when they went down to the 6th floor.

Smoke that was caused by the fire in the generators due to the collapse of WTC2, as Catalano reports.

And everything went dark when WTC1 collapsed, as Catalano reports, matching what Hess reports.

 

[DGM]

Indeed. Having driven in NYC under normal traffic, I can't imagine ever getting up to the speed limit.

It's easier now it's been dropped to 25 MPH.

That morning..............no one was going anywhere fast. Add to that they weren't actually intending to go to WTC7.

 

[jaydeehess]

Have to disagree with you on this one (and I have seen mythbusters make other declarations that were completely wrong because of the poor methodology) My dad, in WWII, was knocked off his feet by an exploding Japanese artillery and lived to tell about it....

My paternal grandfather was in WW1. Making his way back to his trench across no mans land with another British soldier a German shell landed between them and buried itself in the mud and exploded. The other guy "disappeared" ( my grandfather's word) and he found himself pushed into side of the crater,,,,, and deaf, a condition that did eventually rectify on its own. He apparently did not suffer being shredded by shrapnel due to the thick mud.

So, it is survivable, perhaps even with little or no permanent injury, but I figure its quite a rare occurrence.

 

[jaydeehess]

There is no way to shoe-horn Mr Jennings making two trips to the OEM, finding it empty, making a few calls, leaving down to the 6th floor then back up to the 8th before the buildings collapse (atleast not before the South Tower). They would have to be sprinting the whole time.

There are so many failures in the timeline that MM us pushing it takes a real religious idealogue to maintain belief in it.
Yes, J&H have to be sprinting from place to place, then they have to survive a close encounter with an explosion with nary a scratch, then they experience two more horrific enveloping dust clouds and a building reacting to having several exterior columns being violently ripped out, all without any more comment other than having "heard" more explosions.
In addition Jennings' saying they arrived before WTC2 was hit is patently in error, a situation which even MM, after arguing the point for a while, now acknowledges. The time at which they made their final exit of the OEM is also quite obviously much later than MM can accept yet he continues to maintain his belief, religiously.

Lately he switches gears to Zarillo/Drury and the expectation that Zarrilo and Drury could be exceeding the speed limit. My experience in a much smaller city, Winnipeg, when the Jets are at home puts the lie to that. It means a large influx of cars to downtown, a large number of people walking from parking lots and restaurants, to the MTS Center. Streets are almost choked and although traffic moves along there's no weaving through it at any speed let alone greater than the posted 50 kph.

Now in a similar rush traffic situation, add in fear, as opposed to getting to the game before the puck drops. Then add in a large number of emergency vehicles doing two things to traffic. First of all they simply add to vehicles moving on roads leading to the area, and second, once there they park and clog some streets.

Something like 20,000 to 50,000 people were exiting the area of lower Manhattan after the second crash, and doing so by surface vehicle ( trains had shut down) and on foot. This is unlike regular rush hour in which this exodus is orderly and not the result of fear and benefits by a good percentage taking the trains. Its also a double rush hour in that surface vehicles are still moving in the normal pattern into Manhattan at the same time as this exodus from Manhattan is occurring.

But MM, expects vehicles to see Drury's flashing lights and move to the right and allow him to pass. Not bleeding likely, even if they want to its quite probable that much of the time there's no where to move aside to in order to let him pass.

 

[GlennB]

MM has also acknowledged that Jennings can't have broken the window until after the WTC1 collapse, a point he vehemently disputed earlier.

In fairness, his position has evolved - in the face of solid evidence - quite dramatically over the years. Unfortunately it has evolved to the point of proposing an entirely spontaneous fall of WTC7 in the wake of WTC1's collapse.

In short, it has got even more ridiculous.

 

[DGM]

In fairness, his position has evolved - in the face of soild evidence - quite dramatically over the years.

With the exception of one point, that Mr Jennings saw both buildings after the explosion. All other accounts have to adjust to make this statement true. This bit of memory is indisputable although other parts are subject to interpretation.