fitzgibbon
Master Poster
My ranch bungalow doesn't get so untenable as quickly as you're positing and that's without the benefit of multiple floors above and below acting as insulation.
Fitz
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My ranch bungalow doesn't get so untenable as quickly as you're positing and that's without the benefit of multiple floors above and below acting as insulation.
Fitz
Animal
Master Poster
My ranch bungalow doesn't get so untenable as quickly as you're positing and that's without the benefit of multiple floors above and below acting as insulation.
Fitz
In most large office buildings, there is little effect from outside conditions. Most conditioning of air is due to internal elements....people, computers,lights etc.
It's just more revisionism from MM. From his own 2008 transcript (linked before):
"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark.
It was dark.And it was very very hot. VERY hot.
I asked Mr. Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows."
My bolding.
"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark.
It was dark.And it was very very hot. VERY hot.
I asked Mr. Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows."
My bolding.
fitzgibbon
Master Poster
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
My ranch bungalow doesn't get so untenable as quickly as you're positing and that's without the benefit of multiple floors above and below acting as insulation.
Fitz
In this case there were no people other than Jennings and Hess, no computers running, and no lights on.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Mike Catalano was in the third floor lobby, on the phone with the chiller plant operator, when WTC2 came down.
The lobby is far from " sound proofed".
He goes on to describe the lobby as pitch black and dust so thick they( others with him at this time,) had trouble breathing. Billy, the chiller operator is on his way down the stairs at that time as are his guys that were on fifth floor. They exit on Vessey Street when WTC1 comes down.
As for the first plane, he was at the chiller plant "above the top floor" for a regular morning meeting with others. I would expect that is not "sound proofed" but just a separate room from the machinery room. You cannot have a meeting in a machinery room, you wouldn't be able to hear each other. At any rate this is in the rooftop structure and they heard a "thump".
So we now can understand why Hess said the lower floor stairwell was dusty before they got to the sixth.
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Miragememories
Banned
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
In "Responding to Horror" , Catalano describes the hit on WTC1 as a"thump". Less dramatic than "boom". That is when he is on the rooftop chiller plant office with no windows.
Later, on the 47th floor, which has windows facing the towers they do very definitely hear the second aircraft impact.
At this time the entire building is still largely staffed.
Jennings saw a few security people in the lobby.
Catalano then takes the " packed" stairs down to find a lobby area with a large crowd.
Jennings saw a few security people.
Catalano discusses evacuation and eventually they manage to call for it and have people exit on the Verizon building side street.
Jennings saw a few security people.
Catalano got a call from Billy in the rooftop chiller plant saying Catalano needed to find a phone. At this time he is in the Vessey Street lobby. He goes up the escalator( which he had shut off) and gets to a phone and calls Billy for the phone number of the manager who wants Catalano to call( manager is in his dentist's office). He writes down the first digit and WTC2 collapses. He gathers the few of his people still there and leaves.
Later, on the 47th floor, which has windows facing the towers they do very definitely hear the second aircraft impact.
At this time the entire building is still largely staffed.
Jennings saw a few security people in the lobby.
Catalano then takes the " packed" stairs down to find a lobby area with a large crowd.
Jennings saw a few security people.
Catalano discusses evacuation and eventually they manage to call for it and have people exit on the Verizon building side street.
Jennings saw a few security people.
Catalano got a call from Billy in the rooftop chiller plant saying Catalano needed to find a phone. At this time he is in the Vessey Street lobby. He goes up the escalator( which he had shut off) and gets to a phone and calls Billy for the phone number of the manager who wants Catalano to call( manager is in his dentist's office). He writes down the first digit and WTC2 collapses. He gathers the few of his people still there and leaves.
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jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
When Catalano is four blocks away, after the north tower collapse, a plane flies over and they all " hit the deck". MM cannot envision why the FFs went away from WTC7 while J&H were at the window though.
Just a quick correction to what I wrote here. When I looked at NIST NCSTAR 1-9 again, I noticed that when I wrote that the damage to the east side window could have been caused by debris falling from the burning floors above, I were to focused on images showing fires on the floors above, while I overlooked earlier images that showed no fire at that stage after the collapse of WTC 1. So the window must most likely have been damaged by falling debris from WTC 1, in my view.
There also another reason to doubt that the east face window was broken by Jennings and Hess. When one looks at the video showing Hess calling for help in the broken out northeast corner window, there are two things bee noted. One; that the window was broken out all the way down to the window sill. Two; that it is only his shoulders and head that is visible through the window; I am assuming he is standing on the floor.
When one looks at the east face window, one will note that window only appears to be broken at the center, away from the frame. The head of Hess would hardly have been visible above the lower edge. If he wanted to call out or stick his head out to look south, he would have needed to climb up on something. I would not have stuck my head and neck out of that window, with sharp edges all around. So it would be reasonable to think they would have broken it out all the way down to window sill, if they broke it.
You may also look at Figure 5-119 on page 206 and Figure 121 on page 208 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9. They are of better quality. You will find a higher resolution version of Figure 121 at archive.org here from the NIST FOIA release:
https://archive.org/stream/nistreview-NYPD-MISC#page/n22/mode/1up
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Do you have one that shows the finger prints on the window with a clock showing the exact time?
How long are you going to play his game?
Could you please explain why Mike Catalano and other witnesses inside and outside WTC 7 did not notice any explosions inside WTC 7.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
It would also be fun to see him try to explain away the crowds reported by everyone else when they arrived at their peak.
Yeah, MM's time-line works.
Nice find.
The one in the top left corner of this crop may be the broken window NIST was talking about:
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
In the Vesey Street lobby and then the third floor lobby but did not notice an explosion at the sixth floor. Billy was still on the 47th floor, or just starting down the stairs when WTC1 collapsed. Had radio contact with Mike throughout, but he did not notice this explosion either.
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MM said:
Why are you allocating the entire 30 minutes elapsed to the descent itself?
A couple of minutes to get to the elevator and find it out of action.
It was apparently Hess who found the stairwell and if he toured around outside the core looking for it that makes 3 trips for him alone - from the service elevator to the stairs, back to wherever Jennings is by now, then return to the stairs. If they were at the S side service elevator that's easily 15 minutes lost.
And Jennings was a big person and later complained about 'sore knees'. If they became sore during the descent it would slow him down. If they were already sore it would be even slower.
And that internal stairway had emergency lighting only, though I have no idea how good or bad it was.
It's easily conceivable that the whole event - from WTC2's collapse to their arrival at the 6th - took 30 minutes. You've simply chosen an extreme interpretation that flatters your pet theory.
Miragememories
Banned
Why are you calling me out with incendiary posts like;
Why do you continue to ignore the fact that the NIST failed to make a "well-established and reliable account" when they claimed unequivocably, that Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess;
NIST NCSTAR_1-9 said:
Clearly this not at all what happened but the NIST state it as a proven fact.
You've read the 'well-established and reliable' accounts of people like Mike Catalano, Chief Engineer for Salomon Smith Barney, who said he heard the first plane impact from inside the soundproof Chill box and who described the attack on 2 WTC as;
Mike Catalano said:
But those sounds and vibrations were nothing compared to what he and others experienced in 7 WTC when 2 WTC collapsed;
Mike Catalano said:
The NIST needed to make the testimony of Mr. Jennings comply with the NIST's own rendering of what they deduced occurred on 9/11 at the WTC.
They needed to synchronize their timeline with the Jenning's timeline so they could explain away the cause of the blown out 6th floor stairwell landing.
Any evidence of pre-demolition would be most problematic to a report that scoffed at any notion of pre-planned demolition activity.
So the NIST chose to simply ignore the inconvenient truths that Mr. Jennings told them, just as they ignored the puzzling fact that neither Mr. Jennings or Mr. Hess felt or heard anything unusual when 2 WTC was supposedly collapsing.
So back to your dodging question.
I am not allocating 30 minutes for the descent from the 23rd floor OEM to the 6th floor stairwell landing.
The NIST is!
The NIST claim that Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess were diverted to the stairwell for their evacuation when the collapsing 2 WTC caused the lights to flicker making the elevator they were supposedly about to enter, a not so good option.
The NIST claim that when Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess arrived at the 6th floor landing, their way was barred by the collapsing 1 WTC.
NIST NCSTAR_1-9 said:
That bit of fiction, made the NIST story tidily fit with what Mr. Jenning's and Mr. Hess experienced.
The 30 minutes is the time between 9:58 am (2 WTC collapses), and 10:28 am (1 WTC collapses).
This reveals a second problem with the NIST's conjured timeline.
Based on Mr. Jenning's testimony of how he was hurrying down the stairway, I believe he could easily have reached the 6th floor landing (ahead of the older Mr. Hess), experienced the explosion which destroyed the landing, and then retreated to the 8th floor in 10 minutes or less.
It is inconceivable that it took him 30 minutes to find the stairwell near the elevators (remember the lights only flickered on the 23rd floor), and then descend to the 6th floor landing.
I have timed this by casually making a similar descent myself.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Do you figure they just decided to take the stairs (Including having to find them) because they needed the exorcise?
There were no reports of upsets to services prior to the 2 WTC collapse. Let me guess, NIST had to make that up too?
Where did anyone say they only flicked on that floor alone?
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