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'What about building 7'?

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Exit lights, emergency lights (including the stairs) would all be UPS. Forget what the code is, but it requires 'x' amount of footcandles throughout for emergency lighting. Generators are not considered an UPS since they take time to get up speed. For exit and emergency lights, they need to be on battery.
The whole thing is a moot point really. Where they were and at that time they wouldn't have been able to keep their eyes open. What "knocked them back" was the panic of a dust cloud so thick you couldn't see or breath (10:28 AM).

;)
 
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Okay, I re-evaluated your post.

First of all, I disagree with your assessment that the east side window (shown above) is only a single layer break.

Regarding the NIST claim that suggests the second window was in the middle of the north face on the 8th floor.




Not that this second window location is a critical point, but for the sake of argument, I think the image I show on the east side is more definitive of a broken window than the weak offering by the NIST in Figure 5-30. Even with the brightness enhanced it is very difficult to determine an open window.
Thank you for reevaluating my post.

You will find the original version of the image here, together with another image of better quality, than what can be found in the pdf version of the report:
*North face 1
*North face 2

The window frame in question is a bit darker than the other windows, indicating that it is broken. And I find it would make sense, that that Jennings and Hess would move over and a break a window above the man on the floor below, when the firefighters attempted a ladder rescue of them.

And as we both agree, the number of windows broken is a minor detail in the overall context. It is just a detail I found interesting to pursue, to get a more complete narrative.
 
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What would be really helpful in understanding MM's steadfast belief in Mr Jennings time line would be him actually posting what he believes it was. Not posting quotes with vague references but actual time (using Eastern time to make it understandable) estimates.
 
The whole thing is a moot point really. Where they were and at that time they wouldn't have been able to keep their eyes open. What "knocked them back" was the panic of a dust cloud so thick you couldn't see or breath (10:28 AM).

;)
Depends where the battery is. At work we have two areas where the battery is in an exit sign on one level that supplies power to three separate lights.
In this case there was apparent damage to the stairwell itself. If the battery was on the sixth or fifth floor and supplying power to lights over several floors it may well have been damaged or disconnected from those lamps.
In addition to this, emergency lighting is usually weaker than normal lighting anyway. Add in extreme dust and smoke and even with lights on it would be dark.

Perhaps low lighting also slowed their descent from the 23rd floor as well.
 
West, mostly because it fits the destruction of the SW corner by WTC 1 debris. It explains the "wall" they encountered in the stairwell, assuming that the corner damage also damaged the west stairwell.
However, if the stairs changed direction at the sixth floor they might have simply turned the wrong way in the dark and encountered a wall where they expected stairs.

It might be better explained if the OEM exited closer to the west or east stairs.

My reasoning for the east stairwell has been that the security manager who become trapped on Floor 7, used the west stairwell when he went up after the collapse of WTC 2, to look for personnel he feared might still be left on Floor 44. I would have expected him to maybe meet Jennings and Hess on their way down. No such meeting is mentioned any place I have looked; not that it need to be either. Next that they broke the window in the northeast corner, since that corner was closer to the stairwell. But of course, if they came down the west stairwell it would be natural to move as far away from the damaged southwest corner as possible. Another indication, is that Jennings in the BBC interview, describes how he moves over to the other side of the building finding it gone.

When I look at the floor schematics of Floor 6 and 7 on page 50 and 51 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9, I have speculated as you that the stair changed direction on Floor 6. If so my guess is the east stairwell, since the schematic indicates a rather large landing there. But as mentioned by someone earlier in the thread, they may have been so far down as floor 5 where the stairs ends in transfer corridors. That would also explain why Hess hit a wall in the dark, while likely attempting a 180 degrees turn, expecting to move down the next flight of stairs.

I have found no indication of damage to the stairwells. On page 300 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9, there is a description of damage assessment done by firefighters moving up the east stairwell to Floor 5, then moving over to the west stairwell and moving up to the 9th floor.

Regarding Jennings claiming that the landing gave way during the collapse of WTC 1, my take is that it only happened in his imagination. Quiet understandable when you in a state of fear in the dark, feel the floor/stair strongly shaking. He might very well have lost his balance.

So this is my take on the their choice of stairs, but I have seen no definitive information on this.
 
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Okay, I re-evaluated your post.

First of all, I disagree with your assessment that the east side window (shown above) is only a single layer break.

Regarding the NIST claim that suggests the second window was in the middle of the north face on the 8th floor.

Not that this second window location is a critical point, but for the sake of argument, I think the image I show on the east side is more definitive of a broken window than the weak offering by the NIST in Figure 5-30. Even with the brightness enhanced it is very difficult to determine an open window.[/color]
Thank you for reevaluating my post.

You will find the original version of the image here, together with another image of better quality, than what can be found in the pdf version of the report:
*North face 1
*North face 2

The window frame in question is a bit darker than the other windows, indicating that it is broken. And I find it would make sense, that that Jennings and Hess would move over and a break a window above the man on the floor below, when the firefighters attempted a ladder rescue of them.

And as we both agree, the number of windows broken is a minor detail in the overall context. It is just a detail I found interesting to pursue, to get a more complete narrative.

Thank you for the better image link.

At least now I can see what they must be referring to.

I still find it rather flimsy evidence of a broken window.

With a fire extinguisher, Mr. Jennings bashed out a well defined opening in the NE corner window, whereas this attempt, if it even is one, looks quite pathetic.


MagnifiedampCropped-WTC7NISTNorthFace2_zps1eaa78ff.png


The upper right corner looks like reflection. There are other dark spots in this cropped image which are not holes casts doubt on the validity of the NIST hole.

Not that it really matters in either case.
 
"I have found no indication of damage to the stairwells. On page 300 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9, there is a description of damage assessment done by firefighters moving up the east stairwell to Floor 5, then moving over to the west stairwell and moving up to the 9th floor."

NIST NCSTAR_1-9 said:
"At approximately 1:00 p.m., an OEM staff member, a FDNY Deputy Chief, and a FDNY Battalion Chief entered WTC 7 to further evaluate conditions.

The OEM staff member reported that they entered WTC 7 through the door near the southeast corner on West Broadway and proceeded up the B stairway on the east side.

They stopped at the 3rd floor level. The atrium was filled with dust but had no significant debris. As they observed the area, they heard the building creaking. Debris was piled up on the Vesey Street side between columns 17 and 22.

They checked the 4th and 5th floors and did not see much damage from their viewing location.

At the 5th floor, they moved to the A stairway and proceeded up."

This kind of begs the question.

If there was no blockage between the 5th and 6th floor, why did the firefighters pick that particular point to change stairwells?
 


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/MagnifiedampCropped-WTC7NISTNorthFace2_zps1eaa78ff.png[/qimg]

The upper right corner looks like reflection. There are other dark spots in this cropped image which are not holes casts doubt on the validity of the NIST hole.

Not that it really matters in either case.

You have to look some floors down to find the right window. The crop you posted shows the fires on Floor 12, and as you point out the reflections of a neighboring building on Floor 13. I made the same mistake myself, before I realized I was looking to high up.
 
​

This kind of begs the question.

If there was no blockage between the 5th and 6th floor, why did the firefighters pick that particular point to change stairwells?

Maybe they wanted to do an assessment of the whole floor, before they continued up to the next level.
 
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Not that this second window location is a critical point, but for the sake of argument, I think the image I show on the east side is more definitive of a broken window than the weak offering by the NIST in Figure 5-30. Even with the brightness enhanced it is very difficult to determine an open window.

FWIW:

In Figure 5-90, windows are visible on a portion of the east face up to the 20th floor. There is no indication of façade damage or, with one exception, broken window glass in the image. The only broken glass is the center window on the 8th floor, to the right of Column 36. This open window is also visible in Figure 5-22. Investigation interviews indicated that this window was broken out by people who were trapped on this floor when WTC 1 collapsed (Chapter 6). Video clips in the database show one of these people inside an open window (8-42A) on the eastern edge of the north face.
​
(NCSTAR 1-9 p.180, pdf vol 1 p.224)
 
​

This kind of begs the question.

If there was no blockage between the 5th and 6th floor, why did the firefighters pick that particular point to change stairwells?
But no mention of damage to either stairwell!
They go up to fiufth, enter that floor and look it over from east to west and you expect them to then recross back to the east stairs? Why?
 
My reasoning for the east stairwell has been that the security manager who become trapped on Floor 7, used the west stairwell when he went up after the collapse of WTC 2, to look for personnel he feared might still be left on Floor 44. I would have expected him to maybe meet Jennings and Hess on their way down. No such meeting is mentioned any place I have looked; not that it need to be either. Next that they broke the window in the northeast corner, since that corner was closer to the stairwell. But of course, if they came down the west stairwell it would be natural to move as far away from the damaged southwest corner as possible. Another indication, is that Jennings in the BBC interview, describes how he moves over to the other side of the building finding it gone.

When I look at the floor schematics of Floor 6 and 7 on page 50 and 51 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9, I have speculated as you that the stair changed direction on Floor 6. If so my guess is the east stairwell, since the schematic indicates a rather large landing there. But as mentioned by someone earlier in the thread, they may have been so far down as floor 5 where the stairs ends in transfer corridors. That would also explain why Hess hit a wall in the dark, while likely attempting a 180 degrees turn, expecting to move down the next flight of stairs.

I have found no indication of damage to the stairwells. On page 300 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9, there is a description of damage assessment done by firefighters moving up the east stairwell to Floor 5, then moving over to the west stairwell and moving up to the 9th floor.

Regarding Jennings claiming that the landing gave way during the collapse of WTC 1, my take is that it only happened in his imagination. Quiet understandable when you in a state of fear in the dark, feel the floor/stair strongly shaking. He might very well have lost his balance.

So this is my take on the their choice of stairs, but I have seen no definitive information on this.

Nice assessment.
 
I don't believe that the OEM was built to the level of sound proofing that your post wants us to believe.



If Mike Catalano reported hearing the plane crash from a sound proof location, I would expect people in the 23rd floor OEM to perceive the even louder sound of 2 WTC collapsing.

Oddly enough though you don't expect anyone outside to hear the sound of explosives going off because of the supposed sound deadening ability of walls and windows.
 
If Mike Catalano reported hearing the plane crash from a sound proof location, I would expect people in the 23rd floor OEM to perceive the even louder sound of 2 WTC collapsing.

Your timeline has them on the 8th floor when both towers collapsed, yet apparently not noticing those collapses even though they had plentiful access to windows and less sound proofing.
 
What would be really helpful in understanding MM's steadfast belief in Mr Jennings time line would be him actually posting what he believes it was. Not posting quotes with vague references but actual time (using Eastern time to make it understandable) estimates.

It's not too hard to work out what he must believe it to be, give or take a little either way, (all times somewhat approximate, with "Jennings timeline" notes in red):

8:46 - WTC1 struck

8:50 - receives call to divert to WTC7 4 minutes after WTC1 impact, an optimistically fast response imo, but plausible

9:00 - arrives, meets Hess, ascends to floor 23 to find OEM locked. Wildly optimistic speed of diversion and arrival, but conceivable if, by chance, he was passing very close by. Is it even possible to park that quickly, get to the lobby and go up 23 floors?

9:03 - WTC2 struck. Jennings is unaware of this, possibly because he's in soundproofed EOM by now, or on an elevator trip.

9:10 - arrives again at OEM and gets in, finding it deserted. Makes a few calls, is told to evacuate. timeline flatly contradicted by others who watched the WTC2 strike while in the OEM, and the fact that the order to evacuate it was given at 9:30, with the evacuation complete sometime after that.

9:15 - begins descent of stairs.

9:30 - incident on the 6th floor, returns to 8th floor, observes both towers still standing

9:59 - WTC2 collapses. Jennings doesn't notice

10:28 - WTC1 collapses. Jennings doesn't notice a VAST building just across the street collapsing and hurling debris at the one he was in.

10:35 - Jennings breaks NE corner window and talks to first responders in the street. MM has agreed the window was only broken after the tower collapses.

Between 12:00 and 13:00 - Jennings and Hess rescued

--------------

Times there are somewhat arguable, such as how long to descend the stairs etc Feel free to hack it around with better estimates. A timeline running about an hour later than Jennings' makes sense of the whole thing if we acceot that he didn't see the towers standing when on the 8th. If we want to retain that part then we have to accept totally irrational parts elsewhere.
 
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[EDITED to correct for wrong crop] Thank you for the better image link.

At least now I can see what they must be referring to.

I still find it rather flimsy evidence of a broken window.

With a fire extinguisher, Mr. Jennings bashed out a well defined opening in the NE corner window, whereas this attempt, if it even is one, looks quite pathetic.

WTC7NorthfaceBrokenWindow_zpsc2abeaf5.png



Not that it really matters in either case.


You have to look some floors down to find the right window. The crop you posted [prior to edit above] shows the fires on Floor 12, and as you point out the reflections of a neighboring building on Floor 13. I made the same mistake myself, before I realized I was looking to high up.

Okay. I corrected the crop location but the image of a broken window is still very poor.
 
As I noted back in post #2288; NIST wrote that Jennings and Hess in addition to the window they broke at the northeast corner, they also broke a window near the center of the north face.

WTC7NorthfaceBrokenWindow_zpsc2abeaf5.png


The reason for this is likely the attempt to rescue the head of security for SSB, who walked up the west stairwell after the collapse of WTC 2, to see if all his personnel were out of the building:

Source NIST NCSTAR 1-9 , page 296 and 297.

So it is quiet reasonable that Jennings and Hess would move to the center of the building and break a window, in the hope of getting rescued together with the man on the floor below.
THEY DID NOT.

Read your own evidence. A security officer broke a window on the 7th floor.

As I posted previously, this is the other window I believe Mr. Jennings broke. It is also on the 8th floor, midway down the east side of 7 WTC.

WTC7ESBrokenWindow_zpsa61fdd0f.jpg


It is a clear breakout with a white office wall behind.
After looking at some high resolution photos of the window on the east side on the 8th floor, I doubt that it was completly broken through.

It looks more like it is just the outer pane that is broken, with the inner pane reflecting the light from the sky differently than the outer pane.

The difference probably due to the outer pane being tinted and the inner pane not being tinted.

If the windows had been completely broken through I would expect the interior to look black like what we can see through the broken window on the north east corner, due the difference in contrast between the daylight on the outside and the dark interior.

Norseman, your lack of objectivity is beginning to show.


NIST NCSTAR 1-9 said:
In Figure 5-90, windows are visible on a portion of the east face up to the 20th floor. There is no indication of façade damage or, with one exception, broken window glass in the image. The only broken glass is the center window on the 8th floor, to the right of Column 36. This open window is also visible in Figure 5-22. Investigation interviews indicated that this window was broken out by people who were trapped on this floor when WTC 1 collapsed (Chapter 6). Video clips in the database show one of these people inside an open window (8-42A) on the eastern edge of the north face.

Thank you pgimeno.
 
8:46 - WTC1 struck

8:50 - receives call to divert to WTC7 4 minutes after WTC1 impact, an optimistically fast response imo, but plausible

9:00 - arrives, meets Hess, ascends to floor 23 to find OEM locked. Wildly optimistic speed of diversion and arrival, but conceivable if, by chance, he was passing very close by. Is it even possible to park that quickly, get to the lobby and go up 23 floors?

9:03 - WTC2 struck. Jennings is unaware of this, possibly because he's in soundproofed EOM by now, or on an elevator trip.

Your 9:00 note in red is incorrect. He had to divert to WTC7, park, get to the lobby, go up to the 23rd floor, find the OEM locked, descend back down to the lobby, find someone to help him get into the OEM, ride up the freight elevator to the 23rd floor, and then get into the OEM.

All that in 13 minutes per MM?

There was also nobody in the OEM when they arrived and MM quoted a time of 9:30 as to when the OEM was evacuated.

EDIT: GlennB, just a clarification. In Barry Jennings interview, he says that he was in the OEM (the screens were off he says) when the second plane hit which is where I am getting the 13 minute timeframe from.
 
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Your 9:00 note in red is incorrect. He had to divert to WTC7, park, get to the lobby, go up to the 23rd floor, find the OEM locked, descend back down to the lobby, find someone to help him get into the OEM, ride up the freight elevator to the 23rd floor, and then get into the OEM.

All that in 13 minutes per MM?

There was also nobody in the OEM when they arrived and MM quoted a time of 9:30 as to when the OEM was evacuated.

I realise it's almost certainly impossible in fact, but the claim is he arrived "before the strike on WTC2" and I've telescoped the possible timings in a way most favourable to MM's case. Absurdly so, in my view.

Elsewhere MM suggests the 'before 9:03' might not be right, but also says :

"Apparently when they returned to the ground floor to get building security to open up the EOC, nothing noteworthy had occurred since their first arrival minutes before. This lack of drama amongst all the police in the ground floor lobby suggests that it was before 0903, yet the fact that the EOC was deserted when Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess arrived, suggests that the evacuation occurred earlier than the 911 Commission or NIST believe.

The only other conclusion is that the time when they arrived was later than 0930 which nicely cooperates with the 911 Commission and NIST timelines.

NIST did say that before 0903 "many WTC 7 occupants had already left the building". How likely is it that his police and building security escort for his 2nd trip would not mention the 2nd plane or a previous evacuation of the their OEC destination?] "


My bolding. link

eta: It would be interesting to know where Jennings lived and the location of his normal workplace. Checking his likely route to work could put this part of the debate to bed.
 
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eta: It would be interesting to know where Jennings lived and the location of his normal workplace. Checking his likely route to work could put this part of the debate to bed.
Here is a link to a bulletin regarding his passing:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycha/downloads/pdf/emp_bulletin_oct_2008.pdf

It says he was the Deputy Director of the Emergency Services Department. The bulletin is for employees of the NYCHA.

One of the addresses in the bulletin says:
New York City Housing Authority
Department of Communications
250 Broadway - 12th floor
New York, NY 10007
(212) 306-4384

I looked up the contact information and it also lists the 250 Broadway address.

Maybe this will help?
 
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