'What about building 7'?

[NoahFence]

Do you care to tell us what caused the vehicle fires if you don't think it was thermite?

It seems your fellow natural cause collapse believers are in a dilemma here because they don't have a plausible answer other than thermite.

Pieces of debris from the buildings. You'll ignore that as too simple an explanation though.

These buildings were made of metal, no?
So are vehicles, no?
Metal on metal creates a spark, no?

Do you suppose any of the vehicles in question had fuel in them that could ignite?

You'll get there. Another 13 years ought to do it.

 

[NoahFence]

if Tony's posts are indication of anything, it's a demonstration of why an appeal to authority is such a fallacy.

For twoofers, he IS the authority.

 

[jaydeehess]

So, not only did the bad guys manage to make WTC 1 damage WTC 7 without disrupting the carefully arranged charges, in a feat that has never been close to duplicated before or since, but they also managed to direct the collapse of in a way that it would set 7 on fire in a very precise manner, which we have also never seen the like of.

Which Tony claims is actually more plausible than a building on fire collapsing in a way that it set other, smaller buildings, and vehicles in the vicinity, on fire. Apparently, bits of a collapsing 1,800 ft tower can't move 350 ft.

Modified that for you.
Of course T.Sz. then says that the fires in #7 must have been lit by his fictional arson spooks. Maybe those are the same fictional spooks that planted the hush-a-boom explosives in #7 in the days/weeks/years prior to 9/11/01.

 

[Ziggi]

...The amount of unfought fire was tremendous (one hose on the bottom burning floor that firefighters could get to, everything else an uninterrupted inferno), I think maybe the fastest-gowing in building fire history. Yes, parts of the fire were burning out, but I can't take seriously your efforts to minimize the size of that natural fire..

How come Edna Cintron was seen standing amidst your "uninterupted inferno" Chris? Hmm? Her being there does not quite match your story, and neither does the account of the firemen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT-po-tmJRc

...Do the cars have the kind of damage you see here, where thermite burned all the way through an engine block? ..

Don´t be silly Chris, the engine block experiment was done with a big dose of thermite concentrated on one spot while the WTC cars were sandblasted with the dust plume from the collapsing Towers, which had microscopic remnants of burning thermite residue.

Asfor Building 7, I go with the hypothesis that with over seven hours of unfought fires in Building Seven, the fires had plenty of time to spread to multiple floors..

The fire did not spread between floors according to NIST, and there is no evidence for 7 hours of fire. You may be hoping that the claim of 7 hours of fire sounds impressive, but even NIST admits that any given office had only 20or 30 minutes of fire.

..Since I hired Jim Millette to test for thermite in the red-grey chips and he found none, and there is no post-thermite debris at WTC, no evidence of thermite damage at the end of the broken columns, and no satellite images of temperatures above 1400F in the debris...

The molten iron spheres in the dust are direct evidence for thermite as are the reports of molten steel under the debris pile. Bechtel workers reported temperatures under the debirs pile over 2800F, which corroborates the molten steel. You also know that the lower 1400F surface temperature is normal since there was a huge debris pile between the heat source and the surface.

Almost all the steel evidence was taken away before it could be examined Chris, so no legitimate earching for thermite cuts could be done, and you know this by now.

Only days ago you were left unable to defend Millette but you keep referring to his unpublished work as authoritative evidence anyway.

...Also, there are no water explosions from the millions of gallons of water the firefighters poured onto the hot debris pile. Here's what happens when you mix water and a relatively small amount of molten steel: it explodes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_HvLvcTMUQ. That did NOT happen when the firefighters poured all that water on the fires. They were worried it might, but it didn't happen..

Again Chris, molten metal under debris pile, firemen poured water on top of debris pile, not the molten metal underneath it all. As you acknowledge, they took active care to avoid nasty accidents.

..Would you agree that in regular office fires, there is lots of gypsum dust from the drywall and cubicles on every floor? Based on your theory, firefighters would have nothing to worry about. Gypsum dust would just put the fires out for them.

The collapse of the buildings turned the gybsum drywalls into fire smothering dust Chris. They would not smother fires this way in intact buildings on fire.

Can you address these points on your own Chris?

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

The molten iron spheres in the dust are direct evidence for thermite as are the reports of molten steel under the debris pile.

Only if you're mental.


Do you know if Gerry's going to respond to this:

"The top of the columns at floor 16 were fixed in the global x- and y- directions, to prevent lateral displacements..."

Note, only the top and bottoms were fixed in the x- and y- directions, the rest of the columns could move in all directions.

Where does it say top AND bottom?
They were free in the z axis.

Just before the bit that I quoted.

…Here, let me read out p484 NCSTAR 1-9 for ya:

"Displacement Boundary Conditions

The column nodes at the base of the 16 story model were fully fixed to model the rigidity of the grillage and foundation (Chapter 2). The top of the columns at Floor 16 were fixed in the global x- and ydirections, to prevent lateral displacements, and were free in the global z-direction, to allow vertical displacement of the columns in response to gravity loads and thermal expansion. The purpose of the ANSYS model was to simulate the accumulation of local damages and failures up to the initiation of overall global collapse due to fire. The building was not expected to displace significantly in the x- and y-directions outside of the floors with no fire and there was no interaction between adjacent columns for relatively small motions in the z-direction, due to limited load re-distribution mechanisms."​

No other Displacement Boundary Conditions are mentioned, and since they explicitly state those for the bottom and the top of the 16-story assembly, I am sure you will agree with what I implied initially: the 16-story FEA model DOES reflect the deformations and displacements in all directions that reality necessarily must have seen - on all floors except the very top and the very bottom. It would help your credibility to admit that the model does indeed reflect movement of all nodes on all the relevant floors (5-13 at least) in all spatial directions. If you go on denying or ignoring this FACT, this would serve to further undermine your credibility.

 

[Spanx]

Can you address these points on your own Chris?

Sorry Ziggi it's not your forum.

 

[DGM]

How come Edna Cintron was seen standing amidst your "uninterupted inferno" Chris? Hmm? Her being there does not quite match your story,

What's your theory for why she jumped? Was she a "Vic-sim".

 

[jaydeehess]

How come Edna Cintron was seen standing amidst your "uninterupted inferno" Chris? Hmm? Her being there does not quite match your story, and neither does the account of the firemen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT-po-tmJRc

In trutherland the exception disproves the rule.

Don´t be silly Chris, the engine block experiment was done with a big dose of thermite concentrated on one spot while the WTC cars were sandblasted with the dust plume from the collapsing Towers, which had microscopic remnants of burning thermite residue

.

Good to know you don't subscribe to the thermite painted on columns theory.

The fire did not spread between floors according to NIST, and there is no evidence for 7 hours of fire. You may be hoping that the claim of 7 hours of fire sounds impressive, but even NIST admits that any given office had only 20or 30 minutes of fire.

That was the average, as determined by the fire spread Sim program. That same program illustrated the time and temp near col 79. Good to know you agree with its findings. The damage wrought in any particular office and to structure therein would be commensurate with the time and temp info the program indicated. Some damage, once done, is permanent.

The molten iron spheres in the dust are direct evidence for thermite as are the reports of molten steel under the debris pile.

No, the spheres are evidence of there being mechanisms, of which there are many, by ehich iron spheres can be created. Reports of anything are NOT direct evidence of much at all, even less of thermite.

Bechtel workers reported temperatures under the debirs pile over 2800F, which corroborates the molten steel. You also know that the lower 1400F surface temperature is normal since there was a huge debris pile between the heat source and the surface.

That same insulating layer can increase the temp in the underground by slowing heat loss.

Almost all the steel evidence was taken away before it could be examined Chris, so no legitimate earching for thermite cuts could be done, and you know this by now.

So? Exactly what steel do you presuppose should have been retained and why? I see no need whatsoever to retain debris not positively identifiable nor that which came from impact/fire floors.
.

Again Chris, molten metal under debris pile, firemen poured water on top of debris pile, not the molten metal underneath it all. As you acknowledge, they took active care to avoid nasty accidents.

In similar fashion a decade ago, a windstorm blew down thousands of trees in an area near here. A few years later it was on fire and despite pouring millions of gallons on the blow down fire fighters could do nothing. It even rained and did not slow the fire. It had to burn out to the edges of the blow down weeks later before being brought under control. Then there are coial seam fires but you know about them.

The collapse of the buildings turned the gybsum drywalls into fire smothering dust Chris. They would not smother fires this way in intact buildings on fire.

By what mechanism does gypsum dust smoother a fire? There are three choices, feel free to pick one or more.

 

[jaydeehess]

Pieces of debris from the buildings. You'll ignore that as too simple an explanation though.

These buildings were made of metal, no?
So are vehicles, no?
Metal on metal creates a spark, no?

Do you suppose any of the vehicles in question had fuel in them that could ignite?

You'll get there. Another 13 years ought to do it.

I recall video of the elevated highway that collapsed when San Francisco was hit by an earthquake. One notes that vehicles crushed by the concrete caught fire and burned. Must have been thermite.

 

[DGM]

Again Chris, molten metal under debris pile, firemen poured water on top of debris pile, not the molten metal underneath it all. As you acknowledge, they took active care to avoid nasty accidents.

Here you go Ziggi. This is where a real researcher would find some evidence of this solidified molten metal. None was reported. Are the thousands of workers at ground zero "in on it"? A large ingot of iron would be something every construction crew would report. Want to know why? It would be a task to remove it. You do agree with Harrit that it would be hundreds of tons?

Get to work "researcher", interview construction workers that have been there all along. Find one that supports your fantasy. Are you able to be more than a Google detective (I already know the answer)?

 

[Oystein]

What's your theory for why she jumped? Was she a "Vic-sim".

In case Ziggi doesn't know this and asks for evidence that the woman commonly identified as Edna Crinton (her identity actually seems in dispute, but that's not important here) fell from the north tower before it collapsed and thus can be assumed to have jumped:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5455310#post5455310

I would like to know, too, from Ziggi whether he thinks she jumped because it was unbearably hot from the hellish fires where she stood, or because it seemed like a jolly nice thing to do for fun on a sunny day.

 

[DGM]

I would like to know, too, from Ziggi whether he thinks she jumped because it was unbearably hot from the hellish fires where she stood, or because it seemed like a jolly nice thing to do for fun on a sunny day.

Doesn't know, that's why we need a "new investigation" appeal in 3..2..1..

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Pieces of debris from the buildings. You'll ignore that as too simple an explanation though.

These buildings were made of metal, no?
So are vehicles, no?
Metal on metal creates a spark, no?

Do you suppose any of the vehicles in question had fuel in them that could ignite?

You'll get there. Another 13 years ought to do it.

Sure Noah, sparks from metal impacting metal caused the fires in WTC 7 and on the vehicles. Cows must be able to jump over the moon too in Noahfence world.

Now for a well deserved reaction to your remarkable notion.

 

[DGM]

Sure Noah, sparks from metal impacting metal caused the fires in WTC 7 and on the vehicles. Cows must be able to jump over the moon too in Noahfence world.

Now for a well deserved reaction to your remarkable notion.

Still no comment on building damage causing fires? Why am I not surprised?

 

[LSSBB]

Sure Noah, sparks from metal impacting metal caused the fires in WTC 7 and on the vehicles. Cows must be able to jump over the moon too in Noahfence world.

Now for a well deserved reaction to your remarkable notion.

http://ehs.cua.edu/manuals/environmental/8-15-Weldingetc.cfm

Fire

Fires are mainly caused by molten metal and sparks. Sparks may be showered up to 30 feet or more away. These sparks will retain their heat for several seconds which is often enough time to ignite combustible material. Have suitable fire extinguishing equipment or material ready to use in the immediate vicinity of the work. At a minimum, a portable extinguisher must be readily available. When cutting or welding in a location where a fire might easily develop, have a helper to keep a fire watch. In some cases it may be necessary for the watch to continue after the work is done. A fire watch is mandatory whenever welding or cutting is performed in locations where other than minor fires may develop or when the following conditions exist:

Appreciable combustible material, in building construction or contents, closer than 35 feet (10.7 m) to the point of operation
Appreciable combustibles are more than 35 feet (10.7 m) from the operation but they are easily ignited by sparks
Wall or floor openings within a 35-foot (10.7 m) radius expose combustible material in adjacent areas including concealed spaces in walls or floors
Combustible materials are adjacent to the opposite side metal partitions, walls, ceilings, or roofs and are likely to be ignited by conduction or radiation
When welding or cutting must be done near combustible materials, take special precautions to prevent sparks or hot slag from reaching these materials. Move the work or move the combustible material if possible. Otherwise, cover the combustibles with a flameproof curtains or sheet metal. Before welding or cutting near wooden floors, sweep them clean and cover them with sheet metal or other non-combustible material. Do not let hot metal or slag to fall through cracks in the floor or other openings.

 

[DGM]

Tony, just wondering:

Arson or thermite?

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/breezy-point-devastated-80-homes-burn-article-1.1194973

Not a lot of fire in a hurricane............

 

[LSSBB]

Tony, just wondering:

Arson or thermite?

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/breezy-point-devastated-80-homes-burn-article-1.1194973

Not a lot of fire in a hurricane............

If only they put enough gypsum in their walls...

 

[NoahFence]

I recall video of the elevated highway that collapsed when San Francisco was hit by an earthquake. One notes that vehicles crushed by the concrete caught fire and burned. Must have been thermite.

Smokey the bear is going to be doing jumping jacks with glee now that we know only thermite causes fires.

 

[NoahFence]

Sure Noah, sparks from metal impacting metal caused the fires in WTC 7 and on the vehicles. Cows must be able to jump over the moon too in Noahfence world.

Now for a well deserved reaction to your remarkable notion.

...Best and brightest!

Listen kiddo, I'm sure it must be tough, what with a lowly printer able to destroy all your absurd points and all.
Use some common sense. Make observations. You'll get there.

Meanwhile, care to prove the theory that you're the best and brightest twoof has to offer by explaining the entire day?

No?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

How come Edna Cintron was...

Yeah... about that:

Certainly "does not quite match your story"
(AKA your post was an extremely, poorly executed attempt to mine information for a selective claim).

Can you address these points on your own Chris?

I wonder if you will have any comment on multi-story fires you claimed did not exist (Tony certainly likes to find other ways to minimize them).
Should I start wondering how much of this practice you placed into the WTC 7 discussion?