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Western Culture

Jal said:
Although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society, Islam becomes the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world?

{snip}

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3016/fastest.htm
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Couldn't help but notice that all references in the link were (where dated) at least 7 years old. No current statistics? How do you know the answer to your question is still "yes"? (Assuming it was in the first place)
 
once upon a time ...

at the very beginning of Islamic history certain aspects of the religion spurned an enourmous amount of growth and technology. During the Dark Ages, the Islamic world had some of the most advanced science and mathematics in the world. Much of what was "discovered" in Europe during the rennaisance was actually found in the many volumes of Arabic literature left behind when the Moors were driven out of Spain. I've thought that this was due to the constant exhortations by the Quran to question what you are told and think for yourself. There is a skeptical tone to much of what is said that carries into Islamic life and helped to keep it much more homogenous than other religions.

Every religion gets its share of those who want to repress a population with its religious beliefs. This is the part of Islam that gets the most attention, but there are also many others who consider themselves "moderates", who get along with people of other religions very well and are open to new ideas. There are also "progressives" who reject many of the sayings, (Hadith), and practices, (Sunnah), and combing the original message of the Quran and rational thought to get back to the golden age of Islam. I've found many of them to be the most rational of religious people to talk to. They eagerly accept scientific evidence and reject subjective experiences in favor of logic. Unfortunately there are a few progressives who have gone a little too far the other way too.

I met Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam a few years ago during a conference. I found him to be an interesting, intelligent, person. When he was waiting for his turn to talk, he seemed so meek and quiet I thought they would have to turn up the volume on the microphones. But when he spoke, it was like he was a different person. Not timid at all. At the front row of the conference were the two wives of the local monarch, (who were probably more interested in his previous career as a singer). He dared to denounce polygamy right in front of their faces, but was such a moving speaker that he got away with it and even sang for them at the very end. He is passionately interested in the education and welfare of children throughout the world, regardless of religion and is does not hesitate to denounce terrorism. [He also talks about the false reports about him supporting the previous Ayatollah regarding the Rushdie -- he isn't even a Shi'ite]. I found that he has a lot of really reasonable ideas for the world, but somehow appears a little too extreme to most Westeners.

Back to the subject at hand. There is a lot of "cut and paste religion" going around, even in Islam. The statement that "Islam is the fastest growing religion" is simply irrelevant, (an older version was that "Islam is in every nation in the world"). Something being popular doesn't mean it is necessarily good. There are plenty of bad things which are popular. I also don't like the "Islam means peace" statement everyone was making. "Salaam" means peace. "Islam", while based on the same root letters means "Submission [to God]". Such "cut and paste" statements seem nearly always wrong. Christians have them too, like "Allah is the Moon God". No matter how many times you try to show that statement is clearly wrong, they still cling to it. The recent trend with many Christians to bash Islam with these kinds of statements every time it is mentioned is one that has kept me from ever considering Christianity. I remember the verse from the Bible that I heard in my youth: "You will know them by their fruits".

I support the right of every person to freely follow the religion or not to follow any religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with another person's freedom to do the same. I will defend their right even if I don't agree.
 
Yahweh said:
I've never been impressed much by the Islam faith...

Wiccan is the only way to go...
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:rolleyes:

Turning from an oppressive religion to a hedonistic one is not a good thing if you turn into a woo woo in the process.

Unitariaism is the way to go if you need religion.
 
Jal said:
Although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society, Islam becomes the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world?
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From a purely evolutionary standpoint, Islam seems to be a very successful ideology.

Birth-control and abortion are basically unheard of in those countries, and since prostitution is illegal (well, sort of, that's a bit of a complicated one actually) you don't have AIDS as a major threat.

Since Muslims reproduce more than Christians, Jews, atheists, whoever, how should that be looked at from a Darwinian perspective? Also, if a group of people are willing to kill, and be killed, for their belief, what is that worth from a Darwinian perspective?

Islam has something to offer to people. When atheists start cranking out ten kids per couple...

This is why birth control theories are so much in play at the United Nations and in think-tanks. How do you deal with people who reproduce more than you? Find ways to stop them from reproducing.

-Elliot
 
UnrepentantSinner said:


:rolleyes:

Turning from an oppressive religion to a hedonistic one is not a good thing if you turn into a woo woo in the process.

Unitariaism is the way to go if you need religion.
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I agree 100% I view going from Christianity to Wicca (or from any religion to any other, for that matter) as simply trading in one set of irrational superstitions for a different set. Your average Wiccan is just as impervious to reason as your average Christian and, when they talk about things like how "ancient" their religion is, they demonstrate a profound ignorance of history besides. There are only two things to reccomend Wicca over the likes of Christainity and Islam, the first is that it would violate the very tenets of their faith to ever try to force their beliefs on others (so I am not nearly as aggravated with them as I am with the more mainstream religions), the second is, from personal experience, Wiccans and Neo-Pagans throw the best partys.
 
Fastest growing statistics based on?

I think there is a lot of confusion here. The "fastest growing religion" rate is derived from American statistics only. I did some research on the numbers of while ago. It turns out that conversion rates seem to be higher for religions which are not "mainstream". Christianity has a higher conversion rate in many Islamic countries simply because the majority of the population is born into their own religion.

Saying that the rate is purely due to population growth is treading very close to racism and a gross generalization. Based on population growth alone, Catholicism actually is a faster growing religion. Muslims in America are from many different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. Only 25% of Muslims in America are Arabs. The population growth with any particular group usually follows the same cultural and economic trends as non-Mulsims, (birth control is allowed for most groups). The argument that growth numbers are due to population has been used in the past toward many denegrated groups.

Since the statistic is based on American numbers, then the claim that the statistics are skewed because leaving Islam is prohibited is not due to government policy, (America doesn't have any such rules -- most Islamic countries also don't enforce this prohibition anymore). However, there might be some fear of offending family members if one is to leave Islam, just as there is for someone leaving Christianity to join Islam, (as many converts have faced).
 
Jal,
I think you will be hard pressed to get an even handed discussion, you did come to a sceptics board.

What I would say is, whatever it is that some people need to fin in religion is going to be found in Islam. But there is no definitive proof that any religion is right or wrong.


Wiccan Way! The path of the many travelling alone to life, love and pizza!
 
Re: Fastest growing statistics based on?

swstephe said:
I think there is a lot of confusion here. The "fastest growing religion" rate is derived from American statistics only. I did some research on the numbers of while ago. It turns out that conversion rates seem to be higher for religions which are not "mainstream". Christianity has a higher conversion rate in many Islamic countries simply because the majority of the population is born into their own religion.
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I study this stuff at university, and I know that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But the people I hear this from are not the type who are, ummm..., American-centric.

Just from worldwide figures, Islam is growing faster than Christianity. That encompasses no single region or country, but the whole planet.

Saying that the rate is purely due to population growth is treading very close to racism and a gross generalization.
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All I can do is direct you to the following links:

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/peo_bir_rat/MID&int=5

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/peo_bir_rat

With the 2nd link, just figure out what the predominant religion is in those countries. And compare that to Western European countries.

Based on population growth alone, Catholicism actually is a faster growing religion. Muslims in America are from many different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. Only 25% of Muslims in America are Arabs. The population growth with any particular group usually follows the same cultural and economic trends as non-Mulsims, (birth control is allowed for most groups). The argument that growth numbers are due to population has been used in the past toward many denegrated groups.
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You're talking just about America, I'm talking world wide. Of course Catholicism is exploding with all of the Latino immigration.

-Elliot
 
Jal said:
This phenomenon indicates that Islam is truly a religion from God (Allah)._ It is unreasonable to think that so many American converted to Islam without careful consideration and deep contemplation before concluding that Islam is true._ These Americans came from different classes, races and walks of life._ They include scientists, professors, philosophers, journalists, doctors, nurses, teachers, artists, lawmakers, chefs, laborers, and every other sort of person imaginable.
_
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Agreed. An intelligent person can find intellectual fulfillment in Islam. Not all Moslems are terrorists intent on destruction, and it's a damn shame that the bastards shine a horrible light on the good people of the faith.

-Elliot
 
Agreed. An intelligent person can find intellectual fulfillment in Islam.
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Yes. But only at the cost of intellectual self delusion. Many bright Christian intellectuals used to spend large amounts of time arguing such fine points as “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin”, mainly because they lacked the intellectual courage to admit that the more relevant questions was “is there any credible proof that angels exist?” It is not at all surprising that intelligent Moslems fall into the same sad trap. After all, asking the relevant questions in some Islamic countries can get you killed. Tends to be a serious intellectual damper.

Not all Moslems are terrorists intent on destruction, and it's a damn shame that the bastards shine a horrible light on the good people of the faith.
Click to expand...

No. Not all Moslems are terrorists: just the ones who practice their faith as presented and intended by Mohamed. Mohamed was quite clear that apostates should be killed. He was also clear that unbelievers should either be made to convert or be killed. The brutalities of Shari law are derived directly from the teaching of Mohamed and are still practiced religiously in many Islamic dominated countries (see my previous post). The genocide being committed in Sudan against Christians and animists is far closer to the true Islam as preached and demonstrated by Mohamed than is the “religion of peace” that Moslems in the west kept harping on after 9/11.

Mohamed was warlord and he created his religion not to make people moral and loving but to control them and to justify his own proclivities. The whole religion is a carrot (heaven) and a stick (hell) intended to create willing martyrs to use in pursuit of Mohamed’s ambitions.
 
Jal said:
Although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society, Islam becomes the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world?


A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousand, Drawn Before and After Attacks
By JODI WILGOREN
Source: The New York Times: October 22, 2001, Monday
Section: National Desk

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3016/fastest.htm

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

Famous people are affected too:

Singer "Cat Stevens" Hear his story as told him . . . read more
http://www.islamtomorrow.net/converts/yusuf_islam.htm
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I already posted about this in 'Ugly Religion'.

Worship Jesus, Allah, or Barney The Dinosaur. It's all the same to me.
 
Jal said:
This phenomenon indicates that Islam is truly a religion from God (Allah)._ It is unreasonable to think that so many American converted to Islam without careful consideration and deep contemplation before concluding that Islam is true._ These Americans came from different classes, races and walks of life._ They include scientists, professors, philosophers, journalists, doctors, nurses, teachers, artists, lawmakers, chefs, laborers, and every other sort of person imaginable.
_
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An appeal to popularity and not a very good one at that. I am sure that all the Americans converting to the Mormon Church, Buddhism, Catholicism, Jehovahs Witnesses, etc. also do so after "careful consideration and deep contemplation". It means absolutely nothing and doesn't make them (or you) right

I agree with Jet Grind, I think you are Billifans Islamic counterpart. Your debating skills are comparable.
 
Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely
[Qur'an 5:32]
_
One of the core meanings of Islam is peace. Therefore, the inhumane and horrific events at the World Trade Center which caused innocent casualties - including many Muslim victims - is clearly, without a doubt, completely un-Islamic.
However, it should be noted that the actions of an individual or a small group do not necessarily represent the beliefs of a particular religion, nor is that religion responsible for such actions. Therefore, the media’s labeling of those who are allegedly responsible for these actions as “Islamic Terrorists” and the linking of such actions to Islam or the Qur’an, is incorrect. Rather, such inhumane actions clearly contradict the teachings of Islam - just as the bombing at Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh and the killings that occurred at Ibrahim Mosque, Hebron by Dr. Baruch Goldstein clearly contradict the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, respectively.
It is inconceivable that the religion of Islam, which takes its teachings from the noble Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad - peace be upon all of them - would ever teach terrorism or suicide missions. In reality, Islam not only condemns terrorism and suicide missions, but also prohibits them completely. Thus, many Muslim nations, organizations, and communities all around the world have condemned such actions, hoping never to see its like again.
It is also unfortunate that harassment of various kinds (including shootings, beatings, stone throwing, robberies, vandalism, death threats and hate language) has occurred against innocent Muslims resident in the United States – the elderly, women and children alike. In addition, Islamic places of worship and Muslim owned businesses have now become the targets of some peoples’ anger and ignorance, just as the American people had become the targets of the anger and ignorance of the perpetrators of the World Trade Center attacks. Such bigotry and hatred is inhumane and unjustified.
We denounce the killing of innocent civilians in the United States, just as we have patiently for many years denounced the killing of innocent civilians in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, India and other countries.
May God, Almighty, the One without any associates or partners in His Divinity, guide us all to the

Truth and spread peace throughout the earth. Ameen.

The Old Testament does contain references to killing humans.
Christianity Judaism and Islam are Abrahamic religions and their holy books all have murder in them. So if one of these books should be burned for the filth in them, then the same should go for the other books.
The bible condones killing . For example, killing children indiscriminately is no worse nor is it better than genocide. To think so would be backwards.
 
Jal is spamming the same things all over the internet.

The phrase in the opening post, "Although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western", appears in the following places:

http://www.tech-forums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4227
http://www.frankmag.net/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=396
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=170972
http://www.christianforums.com/t54318&page=1

The phrase, "They include scientists, professors, philosophers, journalists, doctors, nurses, teachers, artists", appears in the following place:

http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/am.htm

The phrase, "Therefore, the inhumane and horrific events at the World Trade", appears in the following places:

http://www.thetruereligion.org/usattack.htm
http://members.aol.com/kjvisbest/terr_isl.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/islam.html
http://www.geocities.com/marc188/attacks_on_america
 
The opening post of this thread is much the same in content as the one in this earlier thread. In that thread, I made the following post. It pretty much still applies.


Jal:

First of all, a belated "welcome to the forum!"

I would just like to give you some advice. It's generally frowned upon here to make a post entirely made up of cut-and-pasted material. It would be more interesting if you would give us your own take on Islam. Also, many people have commented on the point you raised in the opening post. Would you care to respond?

That being said, I will also point out that by making cut-and-paste posts, you have already run afoul of the forum rules. By telling us what you think, you won't have this problem. Plus, people will be more likely to respond to you in a serious manner if it's your views they're responding to.

Finally, even if you do cut and paste something from a site such as http://www.thetruereligion.org/usattack.htm, that says that it's all right to freely distribute some of it's content around the web, it's considered polite to include a link to the source.

I suggest you start telling us in your own words your views on Islam.

Raja
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I find that Jal's posts in these threads are still mostly cut-and-pastes from various pro-Islamic websites. I, for one, would still be interested in finding out Jal's actual views and reasoning.

So, Jal, how about it? Tell us what you think.

And, once again, if you're just going to post quotes from websites, a) link to your sources, and b) make sure you aren't violating copyright. Presenting this stuff without attribution makes it seem as if you want us to believe these are your own words. This is intellectual dishonesty, and at best reflects badly upon you and whatever your position on the subject actually is. It is also a violation of rule #4, and could be grounds for suspension, especially considering that you have been warned about this before.

Raja
 
This thread has been reported, and so I have read it. It was reported for spam.

While Jal may be posting the same material on other fora, he has not, as far as has been reported, posted the same material multiple times/places on this forum. Therefore I do not find him to be in violation of the rules.

hal bidlack
administrator
 
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