Split Thread Western culture, values and race

[Slowvehicle]

Do me a favor and challenge yourself here. I want you to be brave enough to take an actual shot at answering just this one simple, stripped down question:

Why should Whites celebrate becoming a minority in nations they have enjoyed majority status in, and do you acknowledge that this is likely to involve them feeling far more alienated from these societies as time goes by?

Seriously. Just answer. And I extend this to anyone else, too.

Why would White people be happy about this?

People with pale skin should step up and admit that their privilege was artificially granted, and can only be supported by the oppression of others.

Will they be "happy" about becoming just like everyone else? -No.

Will it be justice, when they are? -Yes.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I mean race, sex, age, nationality, culture, ethnicity, religion and many other things which are important vectors of human identity and which are not all equal in their ability to be set aside or overcome or "gotten past" or however you prefer to say it.

And race is the hardest one to get past.

These things are actually all MORE important to nonwhites, currently, than to Whites.

Given the history of "arguments" about gender and sexuality on this very forum, I am not sure that I agree with you. It seem s to me that being "different" is the hardest social stigma to get past...

 

[Slowvehicle]

What would be the results if just lefthanded gingers voted?

The righties, and the rest of the electorate, would LOSE THEIR SOULS !!11elevendy11!!

 

[Slowvehicle]

In another thread, logger specifically made a statement in which "leftists" are the opposite of "morality."

Morality of course being defined by opposition to "leftist" policies ....

...but they said "do-gooders" wer all righties!!

(I guest a lefty do-gooder is supposed to be called a "SJW"?)

 

[Meadmaker]

Probably. Lot's of rapid advancement for Gay rights, and a portion of the population doesn't want to cede that ground without a greater fight.

They also want access to abortion rolled back, probably anti-marijuana too.

Certainly a lot of people haven't given up the abortion fight, but I don't think that explains the vitriol and "end of the country" rhetoric, just because if that were it you'd have to think the country ended in 1973.

Maybe they do. It certainly is a very different place than it was back then. However, I think the over the top rhetoric and gloom and doom has to be based on something more recent, or something feared in the near future.

 

[Darat]

You don't consider Western values and culture to be better, on the whole?



Clearly you didn't read my posts since I've already mentioned that race has nothing to do with it.

Re read my post and then respond to what I posted.

 

[CapelDodger]

Maybe they do. It certainly is a very different place than it was back then. However, I think the over the top rhetoric and gloom and doom has to be based on something more recent, or something feared in the near future.

I detect a pretty widespread apocalyptic atmosphere, as if there's a general sense that things (various) are coming to a head. The ever-increasing pace of change and widening generation gap has a lot to do with that, I think.

Population pressure, resource depletion, climate change, failing nations, global finance and trade on a knife-edge, concentration of wealth in ever fewer hands ... something's gotta blow. And things will, all over.

 

[CapelDodger]

You don't consider Western values and culture to be better, on the whole?

Myself, I think of them as Enlightenment values, and I'm very much in favour.

I'm in my seventh decade and have seen enormous advances in the Enlightenment project in my lifetime, on race, gender and sexual orientation. Sadly there seems to have been a regression recently, coincident with the re-emergence of religion as a political force. I like to think it's just a hiccup.

 

[Trebuchet]

Perhaps. But who determines what "American culture" is?

I passed a sign today reading "Tulalip Hibulb Cultural Center". Why don't those people just join in with true American culture?

https://www.tulaliptribes-nsn.gov/

 

[Belz...]

Re read my post and then respond to what I posted.

Yes, that's what I'm asking you to do. That and the question you just ignored. See CapelDodger's post just below yours.

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

You don't consider Western values and culture to be better, on the whole?

No, because that "better" is not a fact, but a feeling and we as skeptic only use facts and reasoning, not feelings. Thus "you are wrong", because you argue using feelings and not facts. You should know this as a skeptic.

 

[Darat]

Yes, that's what I'm asking you to do. That and the question you just ignored. See CapelDodger's post just below yours.

I not only read my post, I actually wrote it. When you understand what I wrote and ask me questions about it I'll more than likely respond to you until then there is nothing for me to respond to, strawmen are boring.

 

[Foolmewunz]

The lil dude in my avatar.

And the li'l dude in mine (although he's not so little, now... for a kid "born on the forums", he's now 8.... time flies).

 

[Belz...]

I not only read my post, I actually wrote it.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited breach of rule 0

When you understand what I wrote and ask me questions about it I'll more than likely respond to you until then there is nothing for me to respond to, strawmen are boring.

No, you clarify what you think is important about your post and we can then discuss it. I'm not a mind-reader.

 

[Belz...]

No, because that "better" is not a fact, but a feeling and we as skeptic only use facts and reasoning, not feelings.

BS. We use our own feelings and values all the time, and that was exactly the essence of my question. Your argument here would preclude me from asking someone if they liked a particular movie, because "good" and "bad" are based on feelings.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

No, you clarify what you think is important about your post and we can then discuss it. I'm not a mind-reader.

If you had just said you didn't understand it in the first place... there is nothing wrong with not understanding something you know? Much better to ask for an explanation then create silly strawmen.

I'll unpack it for you:

You posted: As long as western culture and values remain, who cares about colour? Why is it such a big issue in the first place?

My first comment was:

"Who cares about culture and values longterm?"

This was in reference to your post and the ongoing discussion, so it was a comment on Skeptic Tank's concerns about values won't be same a 100, 200 years from now. And my question was questioning whether any of us are really bothered about values and so on longterm i.e. outside our and probably children's lifetimes?

My second sentence was:

"Thankfully the current culture of my society has very different values to that of my grandparents."

Here I was introducing the idea that your idea of "western values" is not a fixed point, my grandparents like me were born into a culture that had "western values" yet I am profoundly grateful that I wasn't born into their society of "western values". If you would like some examples, when my grandparents were born there was not universal suffrage for men nor women, women could not obtain a divorce without the husband's permission, there was no universal healthcare.

And I suspect from the viewpoint of my younger relatives they are profoundly grateful that they are not living in the "western value" based society I was born into. The society/culture I was born into had all abortions illegal, no equal rights, the Lord Chamberlain was still licensing theatre productions and could refuse a licence for any production if "it is fitting for the preservation of good manners, decorum or of the public peace so to do"!

Wanting a society to keep to "western values" really means nothing as they have always been changing.

And my final statement was "Even if the "whites " remain a majority the values of societies a 100 years from now will be very different."

By that I was meaning it doesn't matter if the "whites" (I used quotation marks to make it obvious I was using the word in an unusual sense as I am again - I thought the context would make it clear that it was Skeptic Tank's strange and irrational definition I was referring to) remain a majority or not our society and our values and principles will have changed in a 100 years, probably in ways none of us can predict.

Change is inherent in all value systems, even those claiming consistency over centuries i.e. the RCC.

 

[Giz]

Wanting a society to keep to "western values" really means nothing as they have always been changing.
.

This is silly. While there have been changes and improvements, there is an obvious cultural continuity.

 

[Darat]

This is silly. While there have been changes and improvements, there is an obvious cultural continuity.

You claim it is silly and then yourself go on to say there are "changes and improvements" - you seem to be contradicting yourself.

 

[Giz]

You claim it is silly and then yourself go on to say there are "changes and improvements" - you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Only if you define continuity as stasis.

 

[quadraginta]

Because some of us don't use the same classification criteria as you do.

This is one of the things that amazes me the most about these sorts of foam-at-the-mouth, bigoted rants.

These bigots have been defining themselves into a minority. It's their 'One Drop Rule' that at one fell swoop can turn all the subsequent generations of any previously safely WASP family into evil 'brown people'.

If Jane Smith, with an impeccable pedigree all the way back to Plymouth Rock and beyond commits the crime of marrying someone named Gonzales then all of their progeny for all eternity (no matter who they might marry) have now become part of the problem. More 'brown people' taking away the rights of honest white citizens.

There's no way to earn their way back into the club. They're the enemy forever.

And God forbid that they actually marry a black. The Mark of Cain will be there for all to see.



They've adopted a classification system which has made their descent into irrelevance all but inevitable.

And they deserve it. It's exactly what they asked for.

That they are too brain-dead to understand this makes it all the more entertaining to watch.