West Ham Supporters Arrested For Free Speech

[WildCat]

I've pointed out to WildCat in one of his other free speech rants that the so called Land of the Free has the highest incarceration rate in the world, is one of the few countries that refuses to ratify the universal declaration of human rights (so that they can continue to execute children and other such charming activities) they have not signed up to the international criminal court.

It would seem that for some Americans the reason that they fetishise over the Right to Free speech that it's one of the few rights they actually have. When they witness people with a whole variety of rights and the complexity of having one right conflict with another they're baffled, confused and lash out.

Whatever our faults, our streets aren't crawling with mobs of violent anti-semites. Maybe if you put violent racists in jail for their acts of violence instead of cracking down on free speech a Jew could walk the streets of West Ham.

 

[The Don]

I don't live in the UK, I can only go by what you said:

Apparently the UK in 2012 resembles 1930s Germany, where Jews out in public are risking their lives.

You really think free speech is to blame?

Nope, it resembles the UK in 2012 where turning out in the wrong part of town in the wrong sports strip could result in a beating.

It's a bit like some of the "'hoods" in the U.S. where wearing the wrong colours could end badly (although in the U.K it's very unlikely you'll get shot).

With respect to free speech. In the UK you are entitled to intolerant views but if you and a group of like-minded individuals so so in a threatening manner then the rights to safety of the people you are threatening outweighs your rights to express those views.

In the case of football it's a little more complicated than that. Many clubs are associated with different groups or events and these are used to antagonise and intimidate so to provoke:

• Celtic fans - act in a protestant sectarian (or Irish loyalist) way
• Ragners fans - act in a catholic sectarian (or Irish repuiblican) way
• Manchester United - make fun of the 1958 Munich air crash
• Liverpool - make fun of Hillsbrough
• Tottenham - be offensive towards Jews

At a football match (which in the U.K. is sadly quite often a highly charged atmosphere) this kind of behaviour would be interpreted as intimidation rather than an expression of free speech.

 

[The Don]

Whatever our faults, our streets aren't crawling with mobs of violent anti-semites. Maybe if you put violent racists in jail for their acts of violence instead of cracking down on free speech a Jew could walk the streets of West Ham.

They're not antisemites, they're anti-Tottenham. To be absolutely clear....

- A Jew (wearing Orthodox clothing) would be unlikely to suffer harm
- A gentile (wearing a Tottenham strip) would likely suffer harm

 

[WildCat]

You still cannot tell the difference between expressing an opinion, which is fine in the UK, and chanting it as abuse to provoke a fight, which is not in the UK.

Ah, so if you claim the opinion is actually incitement () you can jail people for incitement () and not because they spoke the forbidden words.

And Pussy Riot wasn't jailed because they sang anti-Putin songs, it's because they were hooligans. And the Falun Gong in China aren't oppressed because of their religion, it's because of whatever the Chinese government says the real reason is.

 

[WildCat]

They're not antisemites, they're anti-Tottenham. To be absolutely clear....

- A Jew (wearing Orthodox clothing) would be unlikely to suffer harm
- A gentile (wearing a Tottenham strip) would likely suffer harm

Can you Brits please make up your minds?

The goal of the soccer holligans was to prevent Jewish fans from participating, through fear, in a public soccer match.

So the Don, you're claiming this actually has nothing to do with anti-semitism? Why were they then arrested for a ''racially aggravated public order offense"?

It's anti-semitism, it's not anti-semitism. Depending on who you ask.

 

[zooterkin]

Er, is someone making a Nativity scene? We've just had a large delivery of straw...

 

[WildCat]

Nope, it resembles the UK in 2012 where turning out in the wrong part of town in the wrong sports strip could result in a beating.

It's a bit like some of the "'hoods" in the U.S. where wearing the wrong colours could end badly (although in the U.K it's very unlikely you'll get shot).

Uh, no. Being a gang member in another gang's territory can get you shot.

With respect to free speech. In the UK you are entitled to intolerant views but if you and a group of like-minded individuals so so in a threatening manner then the rights to safety of the people you are threatening outweighs your rights to express those views.

So who was Michael Coleman threatening? The kid who made fun of the dead girl? Etc etc.

In the case of football it's a little more complicated than that. Many clubs are associated with different groups or events and these are used to antagonise and intimidate so to provoke:

• Celtic fans - act in a protestant sectarian (or Irish loyalist) way
• Ragners fans - act in a catholic sectarian (or Irish repuiblican) way
• Manchester United - make fun of the 1958 Munich air crash
• Liverpool - make fun of Hillsbrough
• Tottenham - be offensive towards Jews

At a football match (which in the U.K. is sadly quite often a highly charged atmosphere) this kind of behaviour would be interpreted as intimidation rather than an expression of free speech.

I still don't get why you crack down on speech instead of the actual violent behavior you're worried about.

 

[Nessie]

In the UK in the last few months people have been convicted for being mean on facebook, for giving their opinions on immigration, and for other such nonsense. And despite all the legal attempts to enforce a civil society a Jew can't walk the streets of West Ham without being violently attacked.

Maybe you're doing it wrong?

Maybe you got it wrong as all the above are not true.

 

[The Don]

Can you Brits please make up your minds?

Do we have to ? Is there a complete homogeneity of views in the U.S. ?

So the Don, you're claiming this actually has nothing to do with anti-semitism? Why were they then arrested for a ''racially aggravated public order offense"?

It's anti-semitism, it's not anti-semitism. Depending on who you ask.

Like I said, it's complicated.

Tottenham Hotspur have a large Jewish following due to the fact that there is a large Jewish community in the part of London from which they draw their core support. Since the 1930's (when there was large-scale anti-Semitism in the UK) a significant proportion of Tottenham fans have self-identified as "Yids". In order to provoke Tottenham fans, opposing groups make anti-Semitic gestures and make anti-Semitic chants.

Some of those opposing fans may be anti-Semitic (in the U.K, as in many other countries including the U.S., we still have anti-Semites), others may merely using anti-Semitism as way of provoking the opposition.

 

[Nessie]

Ah, so you actually have no evidence whatsoever that UK thought crime laws actually reduce racism and such.

Oh sorry, it's only when you express those thoughts that you get arrested. Huge difference.

There are no thought crime laws, nor laws against airing your thoughts, only crimes against being abusive and threatening whilst expressing those thoughts.

You still don't understand the difference between speaking and hurling abuse

 

[Nessie]

Whatever our faults, our streets aren't crawling with mobs of violent anti-semites. Maybe if you put violent racists in jail for their acts of violence instead of cracking down on free speech a Jew could walk the streets of West Ham.

Neither are our streets plagued with anti-Semitic mobs, because we do arrest violent racists and don't attack freedom of speech.

 

[Nessie]

......

• Celtic fans - act in a protestant sectarian (or Irish loyalist) way
• Ragners fans - act in a catholic sectarian (or Irish repuiblican) way
  
  
  .......

• 
  
  Er, edit, change that, delete, it is the wrong way round, oh my God , oh no, you are in deep do do now. Emergency, don't come to Glasgow!!!!!!!!

 

[The Don]

Uh, no. Being a gang member in another gang's territory can get you shot.

Well maybe it's misreported in the U.K. and U.S. shows are exaggerating but the impression given over here is that "colours" can get you into a deal of trouble even if worn inadvertently - or if worn even if you're not a gang member.

So who was Michael Coleman threatening? The kid who made fun of the dead girl? Etc etc.

I'm pretty sure that Michael Coleman is not a West Ham fan and neither was he at the West Ham vs. Tottenham game.

Obviously if you want to start a thread about his persecution then you're free to do so.

I still don't get why you crack down on speech instead of the actual violent behavior you're worried about.

It's the intimidatory nature of that speech that's the problem from a U.K. perspective. By the time you're cracking down on the violence it's already too late.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Uh, no. Being a gang member in another gang's territory can get you shot.

Think of the 'hard core' football fans as being the same as your American Gangs.

Wear a Sunderland Shirt in Newcastle or Tottenham Shirt in West Ham or a Rangers Shirt in the Celtic part of the city and vice vera for them all. then you get City and United in Manchester, Liverpool and Everton etc.

It tends to be clubs that are adjacent to each other in the same city or very close (Like Newcastle and Sunderland) that has the biggest rivalries.

I know that you are not as dumb as you are trying to look in this thread.

it does you no credit.

You get the picture

 

[The Don]

Er, edit, change that, delete, it is the wrong way round, oh my God , oh no, you are in deep do do now. Emergency, don't come to Glasgow!!!!!!!!

Pretty sure that it's the right way round last time I checked.

If I want to antagonise a Celtic fan I should make piping gestures and/or sing The Billy Boys

If I want to antagonise a Rangers fan I should suggest that 26+6 = 1

 

[Nessie]

......

So the Don, you're claiming this actually has nothing to do with anti-semitism? Why were they then arrested for a ''racially aggravated public order offense"?

........

They were arrested for public disorder. When they are reported to the court the charge includes an aggravation of racism, which makes it more serious.

In Scotland religious prejudice is an aggravation, I have highlighted the important part

http://www.copfs.gov.uk/about/crime-aggravated-religious-prejudice

"The legislation that provides for this is section 74 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 which came into force on 27 June 2003.

Under section 74, an offence is aggravated by religious prejudice where the alleged conduct was aggravated by some form of malice or ill will based on the victim's membership of a religious group.

Just as offences can be aggravated by racial motivation they can also be aggravated if motivated by religious prejudice. As with a section 96 racially aggravated offence, this is not a new statutory offence but it is a statutory aggravation that can be added on to a charge."


A different law is used in the rest of the UK, based on the same principle of aggravation of crime.

 

[lobosrul]

With respect to free speech. In the UK you are entitled to intolerant views but if you and a group of like-minded individuals so so in a threatening manner then the rights to safety of the people you are threatening outweighs your rights to express those views.

It doesn't seem you are entitled to intolerant views anymore, examples being the drunken "twitterer" from a few months ago, and the racist BNP MP. I'll agree that the behavior of the West Ham fans is starting to enter a gray area, even in the US. But those two examples would certainly be protected by free speech rights in the US.

In the case of football it's a little more complicated than that. Many clubs are associated with different groups or events and these are used to antagonise and intimidate so to provoke:

• Celtic fans - act in a protestant sectarian (or Irish loyalist) way
• Ragners fans - act in a catholic sectarian (or Irish repuiblican) way
• Manchester United - make fun of the 1958 Munich air crash
• Liverpool - make fun of Hillsbrough
• Tottenham - be offensive towards Jews

At a football match (which in the U.K. is sadly quite often a highly charged atmosphere) this kind of behaviour would be interpreted as intimidation rather than an expression of free speech.

How would any of that be intimidation? Which is behavior or speech, designed to cause fear. Saying "I'm going to punch your ugly face in", that's intimidation, and not really protected speech over here. Saying, "you have an ugly face", is not intimidation.

Also, I recently watched a documentary on youtube about the Rangers/Celtic rivalry, holy crap its intense. I didn't think it was quite that way, at least not anymore, in England. I actually watch a premier league match or two most Saturday mornings, so I'm not totally ignorant on the subject.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Er, edit, change that, delete, it is the wrong way round, oh my God , oh no, you are in deep do do now. Emergency, don't come to Glasgow!!!!!!!!

No, he is right the two sides 'act out' stereotyped versions of their opposition.

 

[Nessie]

Pretty sure that it's the right way round last time I checked.

If I want to antagonise a Celtic fan I should make piping gestures and/or sing The Billy Boys

If I want to antagonise a Rangers fan I should suggest that 26+6 = 1

I see, sorry, I read it as that was what the fans would do, as opposed to what to do to insult those fans.

Other chants now likely to get you into bother at a game, but not sung away from a match where there would be no chance of causing a disturbance are the Ibrox Disaster Song (insulting to Rangers) and the Famine Song (insulting to Celtic)

 

[lobosrul]

Er, edit, change that, delete, it is the wrong way round, oh my God , oh no, you are in deep do do now. Emergency, don't come to Glasgow!!!!!!!!

Actually I'm quite sure he got it right. Celtic fans are nearly all catholic, if you say "the UDF is awesome" in their presence, you are probably getting your teeth smashed in.