Web Site programming

[Wudang]

Think of php as an alternative to javascript. You don't need both just now. SQL is the standard language for querying databases. You probably don't need that just now, if you do, think set theory from your maths class. XML is like a superset of HTML that lets you define all sorts of things that you probably don't need yet.
Seriously, stick to HTML and css just now. Then, when you find yourself with a problem you can't solve you can check out the above. I'll be happy to recommend lots of resources on SQL.

 

[six7s]

Well put, Wudang

Seriously, stick to HTML and css just now

Absolutely! I think this point can't be made too often

There are important issues to consider (e.g usability, cross-browser compatibility, etc) before trying to build in 'bells and whistles' level functionality

Learn to walk - without tripping over (ie writing valid html and css) - before even thinking of going for a run

 

[Wudang]

I like the Chinese saying "he has a thousand knives, none of them sharp". In IT, you need to learn one technology well, to the point that you can think in it, before you have a good foundation to learn other stuff.

 

[Rasmus]

I like the Chinese saying "he has a thousand knives, none of them sharp". In IT, you need to learn one technology well, to the point that you can think in it, before you have a good foundation to learn other stuff.

True.

One might want to suggest that webdesign should start out with a good knowledge of HTML before even touching on CSS. (Only that makes it just too boring ...)

 

[six7s]

...start out with a good knowledge of HTML before even touching on CSS. (Only that makes it just too boring ...)

Out of curiosity, I have just had a quick skim through the webreference.com HTML tutorials, which 'postpones' CSS until the 5th of 30(!) rather wordy tutorials...

And... to be honest, knowing what I know now, I am sure that - in the long run - I'd find the 'boring' approach MUCH more appealing than the 'o-hell-what-a-mess' plus 'why-won't-this-work?' plus 'i-hate-the-stupid-interweb' alternative

So... I still vote for 'walk, don't run'

 

[Rasmus]

And... to be honest, knowing what I know now, I am sure that - in the long run - I'd find the 'boring' approach MUCH more appealing than the 'o-hell-what-a-mess' plus 'why-won't-this-work?' plus 'i-hate-the-stupid-interweb' alternative

So... I still vote for 'walk, don't run'

Oh, I absolutely agree.

But it will be difficult in most cases to get people to design proper HTML first without a shred of CSS thrown in. I know I wouldn't have had the patience. People want to design webpages, after all. Not documents.

 

[Wudang]

And on the editor wars
http://xkcd.com/378/

 

[six7s]

Superb!

I need more butterflies!

And fewer moths...

The First Bug


Grace Hopper found the first computer "bug": a dead moth that had gotten into the Mark I
and whose wings were blocking the reading of the holes in the paper tape.

The word "bug" had been used to describe a defect since at least 1889
but Hopper is credited with coining the word "debugging" to
describe the work to eliminate program faults
​

 

[hodgy]

I have asked you some questions

If you answer them, I'll be happy to reply

You mean the question about non-html content presumably? I already gave examples earlier in the thread but I can repeat them - how about; ActiveX, Applet and Flash?

My point here was to open a discussion, not to establish a position - but its a derail so we can let it go, I don't want to be insulted further.

 

[hodgy]

Think of php as an alternative to javascript. You don't need both just now. SQL is the standard language for querying databases. You probably don't need that just now, if you do, think set theory from your maths class. XML is like a superset of HTML that lets you define all sorts of things that you probably don't need yet.
Seriously, stick to HTML and css just now. Then, when you find yourself with a problem you can't solve you can check out the above. I'll be happy to recommend lots of resources on SQL.

I am really turning out to be the bad guy here - sorry! However - nobody should think of php as being an alternative to javascript. Its an alternative to jsp or maybe cgi. Php is a good (IMO) language to learn and use though. Download php and mySql and run through the tutorials.

 

[hodgy]

http://www.php.net/downloads.php#v5
http://dev.mysql.com/get/Downloads/MySQL-5.0/mysql-5.0.51a-win32.zip/from/pick#mirrors[/B]

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

Not to venture too far into pedantry, but in specific cases it can be appropriate to think of PHP as an alternative to javascript. At least I do, for something like the time of day example. My rationale is that with server-side scripting, you can configure, test and write the script to deliver the exact same valid HTML page to any visitor, even if they're using Lynx on Solaris (not to pick on anybody here, but that's a pretty small demographic). With client-side scripting, it's messy to get the same functionality for everyone, and a lot of people turn it off for perfectly valid reasons. That's why I like to do even small scripts server-side.

If what you're trying to do is more dynamic and realtime than what's possible with PHP / MySQL, my opinion is that Flash will quickly pay for itself given all the cross-browser testing and debugging required with Javascript to do anything clever. And yes, I'd like there to be a truly free and open standard for multimedia authoring, but sadly that's not the case. Idealists could go for straight Java, I guess.

 

[iantresman]

I'd really like to learn how to build/design web sites.
What are the programming languages that I'll need to learn and what are some excellent books to read on the subject?
Eventually I'd like to design websites with nice graphics, have comment sections written by guests, maybe some animation, hyperlinks and of course written text that I'll update on the site.

I would recommend the following:

• HTML - which structures your Web pages
• CSS - which adds design to the structure
• PHP - probably the most common programming language, and in which the are thousands of free programs/scripts available that can add functionality to your Web site.
• FTP - the method in which files are transferred from your PC to a Web server

While you can use a basic text editor to create your pages, an HTML/CSS specific editor will help format the code, colour the HTML/CSS/PHP differently, etc. There are lots of free editors out there, but you may need to try quite a few until you find one that you like.

 

[Wudang]

I am really turning out to be the bad guy here - sorry! However - nobody should think of php as being an alternative to javascript. Its an alternative to jsp or maybe cgi.

And is completely useless to him at this point as he knows neither java server pages not cgi. So yes, since you're quibbling without actually helping anyone I'd go along with the bad guy tag. Sorry, but it looks like you're arguing here for the sake of it.

 

[Morrigan]

Think of php as an alternative to javascript.

I'm gonna side with hodgy here - this is wrong, wrong, wrong. I know you said having him think otherwise won't help him, but IMO him having misconceptions about PHP is even worse. Too many amateurs and n00bs improvise themselves as programmers simply because they have this kind of mentality. And if I'm the bad guy (girl), so be it - I don't mind.

I like the Chinese saying "he has a thousand knives, none of them sharp". In IT, you need to learn one technology well, to the point that you can think in it, before you have a good foundation to learn other stuff.

I completely agree with this, though. No matter where we disagree, we both agree he should stay as far away from PHP and SQL as possible.

 

[Terry]

I would recommend the following:

• FTP - the method in which files are transferred from your PC to a Web server

Why on earth would anyone recommend FTP in this day and age? It is a horrible protocol, not firewall-friendly by default and sends your password around in plain text.

 

[six7s]

Think of php as an alternative to javascript. You don't need both just now

I'm gonna side with hodgy here - this is wrong, wrong, wrong. I know you said having him think otherwise won't help him, but IMO him having misconceptions about PHP is even worse. Too many amateurs and n00bs improvise themselves as programmers simply because they have this kind of mentality

Maybe its simply because there's too much blood in my caffeine stream, but I can't see WHY you think it's wrong

Would it have been the same sort of 'wrong' if Wudang had said 'Think of server-side-only scripting as an alternative to client-and/or-server-side scripting'?

To me, the most salient point in Wudang's post (for newbies like Yairhol - the OP - who is busy elsewhere on this forum... but not here...) was this:

Seriously, stick to HTML and css just now

I invite anyone here to 'debunk' my opinion that newbies should be encouraged to learn - one step at a time - generic concepts such as the distinction between content and presentation, cross-browser/platform compatibility, accessibility, etc.

There's a reason why all (decent) tutorials begin with Hello World... it works!

I think such an approach encourages the development of skills (and habits!) that can be applied (by the newbie), later, to critically evaluate the costs vs benefits of implementing specifics like behaviour (javascript, php, sql, cgi, java, etc), alternative content (Flash [ugh!] and ActiveX [ugh!²]

Furthermore, I'd encourage Yairhol to practice on a local machine... so server-side and security issues (firewalls, ftp vs sFTP vs sshfs, etc) merit nothing more than a brief mention, accompanied by the cautionary advice: 'venture warily, for here there be dragons'

 

[yairhol]

To me, the most salient point in Wudang's post (for newbies like Yairhol - the OP - who is busy elsewhere on this forum... but not here...)

Reading carefully every post my friend. Wouldn't miss this.
I'm currently learning only html and CSS and it's going so-so. I'm having trouble placing pictures and texts anywhere I want on screen. I've got the box-model under my belt already which helps alot in understanding why there is certain spacing between objects. OTOH, sometimes text appears somewhere on screen and I have no clue why. Also the text-align: is a mystery to me at this stage. I'm working on a nice picture to have as a logo and title for the site.
I agree with Wudang about:

like the Chinese saying "he has a thousand knives, none of them sharp". In IT, you need to learn one technology well, to the point that you can think in it, before you have a good foundation to learn other stuff.

I want to reach a point where I have no problem thinking in CSS and html.
I'm a long way from there yet.

But the conversation here is great and I read everything learing something new with each post.

Thanks

 

[Wudang]

But the conversation here is great and I read everything learing something new with each post.

Thanks

Cheers mate, no worries.

 

[Wudang]

I'm gonna side with hodgy here - this is wrong, wrong, wrong. I know you said having him think otherwise won't help him, but IMO him having misconceptions about PHP is even worse. /quote]

Why is it even worse? He's acting like an adult here and not afraid to admit he doesn't know much in this area. He has to start with analogies relating to what he does know. I'm perfectly happy to have arguments about the degree of orthogonality of various languages, why gotos should be considered harmful and why they're sometimes the right thing to do.
He's a bright guy confident enough to admit what he doesn't know. Javascript is a way to implement if-then conditions. So if php. Until he hits the kind of problems where he needs if-then logic then the rest is just details.