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Waterboarding Rocks!

leftysergeant said:
I do not for an instant believe any report of actionable intel having been gained by torture.
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Then you shouldn't hesitate in joining me and demanding that Obama release the data needed to prove the facts claimed by the CIA in post #903 are lies. Will you do that, lefty?
 
leftysergeant said:
The professionals at those agencies did not approve the methods. The Shrub's appointees, to a drooling moron of them, did. The slimeball Yoo is hardly representative of the professionals in the DoJ.

As for trhe DoD, bear in mind that the Sec Def at the time, the worst excuse for a Sec Def ever and a failed human being, made a lot of real military people very angry by approving (some say reverse-engineering from SERE) the torture methods. Don't equate a pile of slop like Rummy with military people or experts in military policy.
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The worst SecDef was Aspin.


"The U.S. Department of Justice from the Office of Legal Counsel determined that the techniques to be used did not violate U.S. Constitutional laws."

"Professionals?" Who were these "non-professionala" at DOJ that made this determination?

CIA head George Tennent, a Clinton appointee, was not a "professional?"

"The CIA was authorized by President Bush to use water boarding and other forms of enhanced interrogation techniques (EIT's) during interrogations of suspected Al Qaida members Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri during Tenet's directorship."
 
Cicero said:
President Obama is decidedly not interested in pursuing the matter at all.
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That's because he has a political agenda ... and perhaps the actual facts don't support his claims about the ineffectiveness of waterboarding? Perhaps Obama is now just hiding the fact that he's stuck on stupid?
 
BeAChooser said:
That's because he has a political agenda ... and perhaps the actual facts don't support his claims about the ineffectiveness of waterboarding? Perhaps Obama is now just hiding the fact that he's stuck on stupid?
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A politician has a political agenda. Will someone please find a better hiding place for the children?
 
It's hilarious that the same people that brandied about the word "messiah" in reference to Obama, intending to making fun of people they disagreed with, are the ones that really seem to expect Messianic efforts from Obama.
 
BeAChooser said:
That's because he has a political agenda ... and perhaps the actual facts don't support his claims about the ineffectiveness of waterboarding? Perhaps Obama is now just hiding the fact that he's stuck on stupid?
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Stuck on stupid is defending torture as effective in spite of the French experience in Lebanon and Algeria.

Or do you have some good explanation as to why it didn't work there that would not apply to our situation?
 
leftysergeant said:
Stuck on stupid is defending torture as effective in spite of the French experience in Lebanon and Algeria.

Or do you have some good explanation as to why it didn't work there that would not apply to our situation?
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I don't think George Tennent was ever the CIA station chief in Lebanon or Algeria.
 
BeAChooser said:
That's because he has a political agenda ... and perhaps the actual facts don't support his claims about the ineffectiveness of waterboarding? Perhaps Obama is now just hiding the fact that he's stuck on stupid?
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You're really doing this one again?

You remember how you were completely wrong about this issue?
 
leftysergeant said:
Stuck on stupid is defending torture as effective in spite of the French experience in Lebanon and Algeria.

Or do you have some good explanation as to why it didn't work there that would not apply to our situation?
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I already told you:

"They are, afterall, quite different situations with quite different definitions of torture and degrees of ruthlessness on the part of the interrogators. Perhaps the French experience had more to do with French authorities simply turning a blind eye to the most heinous acts (and there, we really are talking about torturing people to death) by those committing torture on their behalf. I don't think that's true in our case. Perhaps the French experience has more to do with the fact that those acts of torture were often followed by summary execution of the tortured individual, without trial or any other judicial procedure. And that certainly isn't true in our case, either."

And you simply ignored that. You demonstrate once again why it is a complete waste of time to engage you in debate, lefty.
 
BeAChooser said:
I already told you:

"They are, afterall, quite different situations with quite different definitions of torture and degrees of ruthlessness on the part of the interrogators. Perhaps the French experience had more to do with French authorities simply turning a blind eye to the most heinous acts (and there, we really are talking about torturing people to death) by those committing torture on their behalf. I don't think that's true in our case.
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Well of course not. Our idiots are defending it as neccessary, even though we are facing the same kind of enemy that the French were fighting.

Do learn history.
 
Cicero said:
Who is going to prosecute the Bush Administration when the DOJ gave its official Okey Dokey to the methods used on detainees, the CIA endoresed it, the NSA endorsed it, the DoD endorsed it, and Congress was aware of it?

Bruce Fine, the former Reagan Administration Justice Department official, wants Obama to give Bush and Cheney a pardon so their guilt would be on the record. However, President Obama is decidedly not interested in pursuing the matter at all.
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8th amendment
 
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leftysergeant said:
Stuck on stupid is defending torture as effective in spite of the French experience in Lebanon and Algeria.

Or do you have some good explanation as to why it didn't work there that would not apply to our situation?
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I don't see any post war statements by the French military authorities who fought in Algeria about torture not "working." Their recriminations are about wholesale killings and the immorality of using torture on the FLN and the French OAS (Organisation de l' Armee Secrete).

From Captain Paul Aussaresses:

"The methods employed were always the same: beatings, electricity, water. Beatings often sufficed. Le gengene consisted of torture with electricity. Electrodes were applied to the ears or the testicles with increasing intensity. Or, water was poured over the face until the prisoner spoke or drowned.

Some prisoners spoke freely. For others, several beatings were sufficient. It was only in the event that the prisoner refused to talk or tried to conceal evidence that torture was utilized. The officers tortured personally so the young soldiers would not get their hands dirty. Many were incapable.

His commander, Colonel Cockborne, was one of those who "were more fragile than the victims." After Aussaresses had been in Algeria for some time, Cockborne called Aussaresses in to question him regarding the use of torture.

"Are you sure there are no other means to make men speak?”

"More Rapid?"

"That is not what I meant”

"I know, my colonel, what you mean. More proper. If I shared your point of view, my colonel, I could not accomplish the mission that you have given me. I cannot think in terms of morals, rather need to think in terms of efficiency. Blood flows here daily. "


"Torture to Prevent Terrorism? Interview with a French Master Torturer"
By Martin Brass
SOF Magazine
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SOF_0704_Torture,00.html
 
Cicero said:
I don't see any post war statements by the French military authorities who fought in Algeria about torture not "working." Their recriminations are about wholesale killings and the immorality of using torture on the FLN and the French OAS (Organisation de l' Armee Secrete).

From Captain Paul Aussaresses:

"The methods employed were always the same: beatings, electricity, water. Beatings often sufficed. Le gengene consisted of torture with electricity. Electrodes were applied to the ears or the testicles with increasing intensity. Or, water was poured over the face until the prisoner spoke or drowned.

Some prisoners spoke freely. For others, several beatings were sufficient. It was only in the event that the prisoner refused to talk or tried to conceal evidence that torture was utilized. The officers tortured personally so the young soldiers would not get their hands dirty. Many were incapable.

His commander, Colonel Cockborne, was one of those who "were more fragile than the victims." After Aussaresses had been in Algeria for some time, Cockborne called Aussaresses in to question him regarding the use of torture.

"Are you sure there are no other means to make men speak?”

"More Rapid?"

"That is not what I meant”

"I know, my colonel, what you mean. More proper. If I shared your point of view, my colonel, I could not accomplish the mission that you have given me. I cannot think in terms of morals, rather need to think in terms of efficiency. Blood flows here daily. "


"Torture to Prevent Terrorism? Interview with a French Master Torturer"
By Martin Brass
SOF Magazine
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SOF_0704_Torture,00.html
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"I cannot think in terms of morals ... blood flows here daily."

Hey, Cicero, do you think you've painted a large enough target on your foot?
 
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