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Waterboarding Rocks!

Cicero said:
I don't see any post war statements by the French military authorities who fought in Algeria about torture not "working."
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Well, there's one bloody simple test of whether their over-all strategy, including the torture as a part of their tactics, worked.

Do you happen to recall who won that conflict?

I don't like taking choosing role models from among losers, okay?
 
leftysergeant said:
Well, there's one bloody simple test of whether their over-all strategy, including the torture as a part of their tactics, worked.

Do you happen to recall who won that conflict?

I don't like taking choosing role models from among losers, okay?
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The American, British, Russians, and French were relying on the ex-Nazis for their advanced technology. Without these "role models" from the losing side there wouldn't have been a space program.

Algeria's independence resulted not in any military victory by the FLN. but because de Gaulle organized a referendum on self-determination for Algeria.

"These negotiations followed on from the meetings at Melun (25 to 29 June 1960) between the French government and the Gouvernement Provisoire de la République Algérienne or GPRA (Provisional Government of the Algerian Republic), and were made possible by the French army's total control of the territory but produced no conclusive results."
 
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BeAChooser said:
I read and understood your last post. Here was my answer

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4664704&postcount=1057

which you then just ignored.
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You are very confused and mixed up. I ignored your post BECAUSE through this post, you have shown complete inability to comprehend mine and blathered on with strawmen and logical fallacies. For crying out loud, you keep repeating the same old "You are willing to let thousands of people die!!!" shtick even after I explicitly said I have no problem with torture if it could be proven to work. :rolleyes: You fail at life.
 
Cicero said:
The American, British, Russians, and French were relying on the ex-Nazis for their advanced technology. Without these "role models" from the losing side there wouldn't have been a space program.
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We have proof that their rockets worked. We have no proof that their intelligence apparatus was worth anything. Why was Rommel sitting on the Pas de Calais twiddling his thumbs waiting for the REAL invasion?

Algeria's independence resulted not in any military victory by the FLN. but because de Gaulle organized a referendum on self-determination for Algeria.
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The FLN did notneed to win. The French lost. Are you sure de Gaulle would have even considered the plebescite had the terrorist movement been utterly crushed by the overwhelming French military advantage? Doing the right thing when you find that the wrong thing is not working is not a virtue or neccessarily a sign of intelligence.
 
leftysergeant said:
We have proof that their rockets worked. We have no proof that their intelligence apparatus was worth anything. Why was Rommel sitting on the Pas de Calais twiddling his thumbs waiting for the REAL invasion?
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So your caveat is it is OK to follow the losers if their methods worked? French Captain Paul Aussaresses never stated his methods did not work. What captive of the Nazis had info regarding Overlord? But since you broached the subject, my board namesake sold Von Papen the information about the Normandy landings and still the Germans didn't believe the info even after Cicero had proved his reliability.

The FLN did notneed to win. The French lost. Are you sure de Gaulle would have even considered the plebescite had the terrorist movement been utterly crushed by the overwhelming French military advantage? Doing the right thing when you find that the wrong thing is not working is not a virtue or neccessarily a sign of intelligence.
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De Gaulle detested the OAS more than the FLN. Of course he detested the allies during WWII as well, but eventually the French elected him President 14 years after the war.
 
BAC: my apologies for my slowness. I'd hoped to be able to post responses to a number of items from pages 16 - 27 during this overnight, but it's 5 am already (and my energy is fading) so I'm going to wait until tonight in order to post when I'm a bit more alert. That will also give me time to try to consolidate some of the replies and to see if I can shorten or simplify some of the replies.

I'll be back to start posting in about 17 hours.
 
Cicero said:
De Gaulle detested the OAS more than the FLN. Of course he detested the allies during WWII as well, but eventually the French elected him President 14 years after the war.
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Maybe some of that had to do with the fact that they were torturing people and getting bugger all for results.
 
leftysergeant said:
Maybe some of that had to do with the fact that they were torturing people and getting bugger all for results.
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But you really are not interested if the FAL did give up reliable info because it wouldn't justify torture, right? Did you come up with any Allied member in Nazi custody prior to June 4, the original date, that had knowledge of Operation Overlord?
 
Cicero said:
Did you come up with any Allied member in Nazi custody prior to June 4, the original date, that had knowledge of Operation Overlord?
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While we're calling people out, did you come up with anything to back up your claim that the US was torturing the Wehrmacht and Schutzstaffeln during WWII? Or was that, in fact, BS?
 
Upchurch said:
While we're calling people out, did you come up with anything to back up your claim that the US was torturing the Wehrmacht and Schutzstaffeln during WWII? Or was that, in fact, BS?
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You mean the type of OSS operatives in Europe that you rejected as examples in the Far East? You never answered about how the G.I's shooting pow's taken at Dachau was not a violation of the rules of the Geneva Convention.

Odd how those who are sure there were more than the three detainees subjected to waterboarding by the CIA interrogators are never asked to produce the names of these folks.
 
Cicero said:
You mean the type of OSS operatives in Europe that you rejected as examples in the Far East?
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Are you suggesting that Dai Li tortured the Wehrmacht and Schutzstaffeln? Do you have any evidence of that?


Cicero said:
You never answered about how the G.I's shooting pow's taken at Dachau was not a violation of the rules of the Geneva Convention.
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I believe it was a violation. What does that have to do with torture of the Wehrmacht and Schutzstaffeln?

You wouldn't be trying to change the subject again, would you?

Cicero said:
Odd how those who are sure there were more than the three detainees subjected to waterboarding by the CIA interrogators are never asked to produce the names of these folks.
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Oh, you are trying to change the subject away from your claim.
 
Upchurch said:
Are you suggesting that Dai Li tortured the Wehrmacht and Schutzstaffeln? Do you have any evidence of that?


I believe it was a violation. What does that have to do with torture of the Wehrmacht and Schutzstaffeln?

You wouldn't be trying to change the subject again, would you?


Oh, you are trying to change the subject away from your claim.
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Odd that Private John Lee of I Company, who claimed personally to have killed at least 60 German POW's, never saw a court-martial.

"In the waning days of World War II, Army Pfc. John Lee and a few other GIs assembled about 60 German soldiers, lined them up against a wall and shot them down in cold blood as the Germans stood surrendering with their hands in the air.

The executions clash sharply with the cherished notion of World War II as the last clean, clearly "moral" war, where good was on our side and evil on the other, a war crime by any standard, committed by American boys of the "greatest generation."

Any accounts of torture as used by OSS operatives are going to be apocryphal as it was not done in front of people marking it for posterity. But even to someone as woefully ignorant as you are about what their country did in the pursuit of victory over the Axis should begin to comprehend that things were done by the winning side that the losing side was prosecuted for at Nuremberg and Tokyo.
 
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