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Wall a huge failure

a_unique_person said:
I think that is what the whole point of my post was. A wall that keeps Palestinians on one side, Israelis on the other, if that's the way it has to be.
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I disagree. Sharing is not the same as dividing it up. No wall, no borders, no difference. They need to unify, or else the fighting will never end.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I disagree. Sharing is not the same as dividing it up. No wall, no borders, no difference. They need to unify, or else the fighting will never end.
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But that is Israel's greatest fear. The birth rate of the Palestinians is higher than that of Israeli's. If that happens, the Jews will be in a minority before too many years.
 
"Simple. It's not palestinain land, it's israeli land. It never was palestinian land."

Yes, and god parted the Red Sea so they could get there
:rolleyes:
Have you been drinking with ZN and Mycroft again?
 
BPSCG said:
Good idea. First remove everyone to a safe area until the dust settles.
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Safe area?

Wasn't really thinking of doing that, seems like a waste of time.

But if you would to that, some basic rules that would change your outcome:

- Both get 50% of the land of equal quality.
- They may not prevent export or import of the other area.
- They must start out with equal resources.



ps. radioactive glass doesn't really work well in chips.;)
 
a_unique_person said:
But that is Israel's greatest fear. The birth rate of the Palestinians is higher than that of Israeli's. If that happens, the Jews will be in a minority before too many years.
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They could always try intermarriage. That would have the added benefit of averting future conflicts, at least when the next generation grows up.

As for fears for national identity... If Israel turns Arab, so what? Is having a minority impose their preferred culture on the majority better than accepting change? That's why countries that guarantee protection to minorities don't have to worry about ethno-religious conflict so much. In many parts of the US, the European-descended white people are no longer the majority. And they haven't had their culture wiped out in those places.
 
They (European-descended white people) were never meant to be there in the first place.
 
demon said:
"Simple. It's not palestinain land, it's israeli land. It never was palestinian land."

Yes, and god parted the Red Sea so they could get there
:rolleyes:
Have you been drinking with ZN and Mycroft again?
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Since you can't offer a valid rebuttal, you just use shallow sarcasm and ad homenim attacks. That's the typical response from someone who knows he's full of ◊◊◊◊◊.
 
TragicMonkey said:
As for fears for national identity... If Israel turns Arab, so what? Is having a minority impose their preferred culture on the majority better than accepting change? That's why countries that guarantee protection to minorities don't have to worry about ethno-religious conflict so much. In many parts of the US, the European-descended white people are no longer the majority. And they haven't had their culture wiped out in those places.
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You're forgetting one minor fact. The isrealis are dealing with muslims. Genocide and persecution of minorities (especially jews) are holy pursuits in islam. They are bound by their love of allah to kill, and oppress the infidel. Comparing this situation to the one in America is an apple and oranges comparison.
 
AUP:
"But that is Israel's greatest fear. The birth rate of the Palestinians is higher than that of Israeli's. If that happens, the Jews will be in a minority before too many years."

I`ve always thought that this is a significant point.
Even though it seems the right of return is a moot point (because of the controlled narrative it has become so), I think Israelis will have to extend the franchise to the Palestinians at some point or they are going to be revealed in all their glory...ie. they live in a fascist state.
The birth rate is beyond the control of the Israeli electorate completely unprepared to shoulder it`s responsibility. It may be that history does for them what they themselves could not show the courage to do.
 
Tony said:
You're forgetting one minor fact. The isrealis are dealing with muslims. Genocide and persecution of minorities (especially jews) are holy pursuits in islam. They are bound by their love of allah to kill, and oppress the infidel. Comparing this situation to the one in America is an apple and oranges comparison.
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And certain whites used to think (some still do, unfortunately) that it was their holy God-given right to persecute other races. That's the point of writing protection for the minorities into the law. Obviously, if unification were to occur in this situation, one nonnegotiable requirement would be for both sides to agree to let the others live in peace with their religion of choice. Beliefs incompatible with that would be inimical to the new state, and would have to be suppressed. On both sides.

Of course, it will never happen. People are what they are, and I can't see either side overcoming their feelings. I fully expect it will all end in genocide, and hope that the damage is confined to the area immediately adjacent and doesn't spill over to the rest of the world. How much longer will the Israeli/Palestinian conflict continue before everyone else stops caring? There are limits to patience and sympathy.

Perhaps the answer would be forcible military intervention by a third party, and removal of both populations in their entirety to new, and very distant, places. Mars and the Moon?
 
TragicMonkey said:
And certain whites used to think (some still do, unfortunately) that it was their holy God-given right to persecute other races. That's the point of writing protection for the minorities into the law. Obviously, if unification were to occur in this situation, one nonnegotiable requirement would be for both sides to agree to let the others live in peace with their religion of choice. Beliefs incompatible with that would be inimical to the new state, and would have to be suppressed. On both sides.
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It's still an apples and oranges comparison. You're comparing a race (whites) to a culture (islam). Regardless of that, point takin.
 
Tony said:
It's still an apples and oranges comparison. You're comparing a race (whites) to a culture (islam).
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It's because I believe race actually is culture, and nothing else. But that's probably another thread.
 
AWPrime said:
They (European-descended white people) were never meant to be there in the first place.
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So where were they meant to be? Please don't say "Europe", because if my grandparents had held to that, they'd have been made into soap during the unpleasantness there in the 1940's and you wouldn't be today receiving the fruits of my wisdom.

And don't say "North America", because Israelis have as much right to be where they are as I do to be where I am, and you to be where you are (assuming you're in North America).

If you exclude land that was once upon a time taken by force, then there probably isn't a square inch of this entire planet that's in the possession of its proper owner.
 
Originally posted by demon
If the wall really is only for Israel's security, can you explain to me why it is being built, illegally, on occupied Palestinian land, rather than behind, or on, the green line, on Israeli territory?
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If it were not for security, why was it started after the suicide bombings greatly increased? Israel had 50 years to build a wall but did not do so until Arafat rejected a peace agreement and encouraged murder. As to the location, the farther it is from Israelis the more security they have. It is easier to kill someone who is 50 feet from you than someone who two miles away even if there is a wall in the way.

I even heard an argument the other day that said that the reason the Israelis built the wall on occupied land rather than their own was to make a point that the matter of a Palestinian state needed to be negotiated and this was supposed to provide an incentive for that to happen.
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The Israelis offered peace. Instead of accepting the offer or continuing negotiations, Arafat (and Hamas, PDLF, etc) responded with bombs. The Palestinians are being punished for their leaders’ actions. The message is that if some Palestinians kill Israelis, then all Palestinians will lose land. It’s a psychological tactic called negative reinforcement. It not fair to the peaceful Palestinians but the vast majority chose Arafat and, according to polls, support murdering civilians.

I'm a bit flummoxed (good word to use), by this. I can only take this to mean that Israel is using the same logic as the loan shark: the longer you fail to pay up, the harsher the final price you pay.
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A better analogy than a loan shark customer is a bank customer who shoots the tellers. The more people he shoots, the longer his jail sentence.

It`s simply another step in the colonization of Palestine and it`s ridiculous to suggest it is not colonisation when so many Jews are settling there
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Let's see, at the same time the wall is being built, Israel is planning to remove most of its settlers from Gaza. Clearly, the wall is part of a devious plan to increase colonization by removing colonists.

As to whether it is a wall or fence, who cares? It’s a barrier to keep murderers on one side and their victims on the other. As for its construction, in some places it is a fence and in other it is a wall.

CBL

Edited for VB error.
 
BPSCG said:
So where were they meant to be? Please don't say "Europe", because if my grandparents had held to that, they'd have been made into soap during the unpleasantness there in the 1940's and you wouldn't be today receiving the fruits of my wisdom.

And don't say "North America", because Israelis have as much right to be where they are as I do to be where I am, and you to be where you are (assuming you're in North America).

If you exclude land that was once upon a time taken by force, then there probably isn't a square inch of this entire planet that's in the possession of its proper owner.
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One of my great great grand parents left germany before WWI because things were already getting worrisome then.

That doesn't explain why there is an army of occupation, killing people, and settlers in the west bank.

As Capel Dodger has said, the big problem for Israel will be when it gets what it wants. At that point, it's internal inconsistencies will surface, and there could be civil war. Already, Sharon has dumped his own party to get his plan for a gaza withdrawal through. Don't think they are going to give up easily.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/22/1098316813567.html
 
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