Wall a huge failure

[Tony]

And what’s with this “islamophobe” crap? I thought fundamentalism was only the arena of a minority of muslims. You’re saying that speaking out against fundamentalism equates to “islamophobia”. I guess such double speak is to be expected from the devoutly religious. I'll just chalk it up to that.

 

[Jim Bowen]

I always find it highly amusing when someone is happy to talk about Islamic fundamentalism and blame it for all the ills of the region without making any reference to the fundamentalist nature of the Israeli state. Would that be classed as a double standard?

Jim Bowen

 

[Tony]

I always find it highly amusing when someone is happy to talk about Islamic fundamentalism and blame it for all the ills of the region without making any reference to the fundamentalist nature of the Israeli state. Would that be classed as a double standard?

I find it just slightly amusing, mostly sad, when someone has to resort to fallacies and lies to manufacture a convoluted non-point. Alas, such is the nature of the islamic and christian apologists.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I find it just slightly amusing, mostly sad, when someone has to resort to fallacies and lies to manufacture a convoluted non-point. Alas, such is the nature of the islamic and christian apologists.

In other words, welcome to the debate, Jim.

 

[Jim Bowen]

I find it just slightly amusing, mostly sad, when someone has to resort to fallacies and lies to manufacture a convoluted non-point. Alas, such is the nature of the islamic and christian apologists.

And such is the nature of Israelphile apologists, too

Jim Bowen

 

[Jim Bowen]

In other words, welcome to the debate, Jim.

Cheers for the welcome TragicMonkey This place definitely beats getting work done

Jim Bowen

 

[Tony]

And such is the nature of Israelphile apologists, too

Yeah? Well at least Im not old.

 

[Jim Bowen]

Yeah? Well at least Im not old.

And you're probably better looking, too

Mind you, my username comes from the seamt a good idea at the time school of usernames. The real Jim Bowen is a famous quiz show host here, who had a long running and exceedingly naff quiz show that used to run on a Sunday evening. The show was that naff that it soon achieved cult status

Jim Bowen

 

[a_unique_person]

I never made a claim either way.

Do you accept then, that many Palestinians ownded land they had title to?

 

[a_unique_person]

The fool has never been to Israel, nor has Demon or a_u_p. I feel that makes them eminently qualified as arm-chair critics but not knowledgable regarding Israeli security issues.

Perhaps their perspective would be different if they lived under constant threat of death by suicide bomber - for ten years now. I dunno. I am sure they will twist the morality and blame something else for people who knowingly and with premeditation suicide bomb innocent civilians.

The fence was built because enough was enough and something had to be done to stop the suicide bombers who didn't care if it was a pizzeria full of familes or a bus full of high school students or a university cafeteria full of people having lunch. Arab, jew, Russian, American...it doesn't matter. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time too bad. You are dead because some guy or girl disguised themselves, strapped on a bomb vest and got on the bus. Sorry but no society should have to live like that and there is no moral equivalence to justify such an act.

Here's an interesting article and only supports my contention that Arafat is the stumbling block in this entire mess.

You see, that is the difference between you and me. I can apperciate very well what is happening in Israel, but you have no concept of what is happening in Palestinian areas.

As I related in an earlier link, the over %30 of young Palestinians are suffering post traumatic stress disorders. That is a massive number. Many of them want to be suicide bombers because it is a release from the pain that is now their lives.

As the whole point of this thread states, maybe if both sides kept to their own side of a fence, then there would be some sort of hope of a resolution. Israel, however, has never stopped creating settlements, and it can only do this by taking land, livelihoods and young childrens futures.

 

[Jim Bowen]

As the whole point of this thread states, maybe if both sides kept to their own side of a fence, then there would be some sort of hope of a resolution. Israel, however, has never stopped creating settlements, and it can only do this by taking land, livelihoods and young childrens futures.

Hear hear

Jim Bowen

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person As I related in an earlier link, the over %30 of young Palestinians are suffering post traumatic stress disorders. That is a massive number. Many of them want to be suicide bombers because it is a release from the pain that is now their lives.

Evidence?

 

[a_unique_person]

Evidence?

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/21/1098316787393.html

 

[zenith-nadir]

Israel, however, has never stopped creating settlements, and it can only do this by taking land, livelihoods and young childrens futures.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yep, you are so sad about it. Must be time for a smiley again, isn't it.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Yep, you are so sad about it. Must be time for a smiley again, isn't it.

I find your crocodile tears as disingenuous as your morality.

 

[Mycroft]

Israel, however, has never stopped creating settlements, and it can only do this by taking land, livelihoods and young childrens futures.

Yeah, I was a happy child. That is until some developer built a housing developement ten miles away.

They took my land. Well, not my land specifically, the developer owned it. Still, the developer was a different race from me, so it must have been wrong.

They took my livelyhood. Sort of. Well, okay, my dad got a job in the construction of the developement, but it must have hurt my livelihood somehow.

They took my future. After all, how can I have a future when there are people of a different race living just ten liles away!!!?

 

[a_unique_person]

Nobody disputes that Arabs owned land in the British Mandate for Palestine. What's disputed is that there was ever a Palestinian government administering the region. There wasn't. It was controlled by the Ottoman Empire for some 400 years, then it was administered by the British government for a time.

And there weren't no Jewish government either. Hence the UN partition that was based on the existing populations.

 

[a_unique_person]

You change the topic. We were discussing your support of AUP's idiotic statement that anyone had claimed that Arab land owners did not hold title to their land. I addressed only that specific issue, that you take it as a defense of Tony's extreme and racist statement is only another example of your dishonesty.

I'll address the rest of your idiocy later when I have time.

Perhaps if we step through the sequence of posts.

Tony

Simple. It's not palestinain land, it's israeli land. It never was palestinian land.

me

Then what did palestinians live on, thin air?

Tony

weak

me

There was a population their, with their own aspirations, history and culture and community.

A good idea of it is the UN parition map, which shows all the existing population centres. When Isreal was unilaterally declared a state, (in defiance of the UN resolution, it was set for different borders), it completely ignored this.

tony

So what? That still doesn't mean it was "their" land. That land has never been "Palestinian" land. Before Israel it was British land, before them, it was Ottoman. If anything, the Jews have more of a historical right to be there. They actually had a state there, which (big surprise) was destroyed by Jew-hating Europeans.

me

As the map shows, they lived there, on their land.

It was not British land, I think you do not understand what was meant by a 'mandate'. It was like a right to run the place till it was ready for self rule, in the interests of those who lived there.

What you seem to be saying, for example, is that the US government owns your land, not you.

tony

That still doesn't change the fact that it was never palestinian land.

quote:What you seem to be saying, for example, is that the US government owns your land, not you.



No, I own my land because I bought it and have the deed to it.

me

What makes you think they didn't have title deeds to their land?

tony

I never made a claim either way.

So, what did they have? The land that was claimed with the creation of Israel wasn't land that the UN was going to give them. The Israel that was declared was on completely different borders. The act resulted in 'ethnic cleansing'.

One of the major sticking points for a treaty has always been the 'right of return'. On that point, Israel will never compromise.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yeah, I was a happy child. That is until some developer built a housing developement ten miles away.

They took my land. Well, not my land specifically, the developer owned it. Still, the developer was a different race from me, so it must have been wrong.

They took my livelyhood. Sort of. Well, okay, my dad got a job in the construction of the developement, but it must have hurt my livelihood somehow.

They took my future. After all, how can I have a future when there are people of a different race living just ten liles away!!!?

No one had their land taken from them? You are entering the twilight zone here.

And you ignore the actual stress of having a military occupation and constant state of war. People have lived their whole lives like this.