Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

I posted earlier that I think that both the absolute and relative ages of both partners should be taken into account, with the relative age becoming less important as the age of the youngest partner increases.
Are you saying that age difference should be a barrier to who we choose as a sexual partner? I think that's unethical. Personally speaking, I think I would have had a much better start to adult life if I had a met and older, experienced man when I was a teenager.

I think your statement is culturally biased too. Some cultures introduce their young men to manhood by an uncle or the father taking them to a much older prostitute. Also, historically, many cultures had no problem pairing up a teenage girl with a much older man. Heck, look at the marriages of the kings of England. It seems to me that as a society we've become a bit prudish about inter-generational sex.
 
In general pain is a warning signal that physical damage is close to or actually being inflicted on the body. Those that get pleasure from experiencing pain are playing at the edge where a little bit more force or an unexpected movement could result in greater injury than one or both parties wanted to inflict. I don't think human judgment is so fine that the line between pleasurable pain and unpleasant pain is never crossed.

While I think you're way, way overestimating the actual dangers of BDSM; isn't it up to the participants to do the risk assessment?

People rock climb without ropes, parachute out of perfectly good planes, surf in shark infested water, every day, perfectly legally. Why is it when sex comes in to play everyone wants to play judge (and not just those that really like to play judge sex)?

Leave people alone as long as it's consensual, that shouldn't be too hard a rule to live by.
 
No and I see no reason for your question other than to delay or avoid answering mine.
Because you seem to be assuming that the situation in the OP was a role-play, or at least implying that all BDSM interactions with a Dom/sub dynamic are role-plays. If that's not what you're attempting to imply, alright fine. But that is how your posts are coming across.

For example, she was once asked by a client to kick him in the head. She (sensibly) refused. If she had agreed to kick him in the head and it resulted in his death or serious injury, is the fact he asked her to do it a valid defence?
There are safe ways to "kick" someone in the head, and unsafe ways to do same. Just as there are safe ways to tie someone up, and unsafe ways to do it.

Whether or not "he told me to" is a valid defense if something goes wrong depends entirely upon the situational details involved. I simply cannot make a blanket statement on the subject.

Are there situations in which I think "he told me to" is not a valid defense? Yes. Are there situations in which I think it is a valid defense? Yes.
 
Are you saying that age difference should be a barrier to who we choose as a sexual partner?

<snip>

I thought it was clear what I was saying. After a certain age a person could have sex with whoever he or she liked, irrespective of how much older that person was. Below that age there would be the potential for prosecution of a person's sexual partner if the partner was significantly older.

More succinctly: For the last ~75% of a person's life, no. Before then, yes.
 
I thought it was clear what I was saying. After a certain age a person could have sex with whoever he or she liked, irrespective of how much older that person was. Below that age there would be the potential for prosecution of a person's sexual partner if the partner was significantly older.

More succinctly: For the last ~75% of a person's life, no. Before then, yes.
Ah ok, thank you for the clarification. Still not sure what I think of that (thinking how much an older lover would have been just the ticket when I was 16....)
 
While I think you're way, way overestimating the actual dangers of BDSM; isn't it up to the participants to do the risk assessment?

The problem with young people is they tend to think they're immortal.

People rock climb without ropes, parachute out of perfectly good planes, surf in shark infested water, every day, perfectly legally. Why is it when sex comes in to play everyone wants to play judge (and not just those that really like to play judge sex)?

I believe a young woman was stopped from sailing round the world solo because someone thought it was too dangerous.

The reason people get concerned about young people having sex with much older men or women is because of the potential for exploitation. This is because in general young people are less experienced at handling the emotions that arise from romantic and sexual relationships (and life in general) than 30+ year old men or women, who also typically have more resources available to draw on.

Leave people alone as long as it's consensual, that shouldn't be too hard a rule to live by.

Fortunately for the families of employees who've been seriously injured or died at work the health and safety executive doesn't feel the same way.
 
Fortunately for the families of employees who've been seriously injured or died at work the health and safety executive doesn't feel the same way.

Not a very good analogy/example. Because the the intervening variable of "might get sacked if I don't agree to these lax rules", I would consider this to be a coercive situation and not truly consensual.
 
I'm startled by this claim. How do you safely kick someone in the head?
The same way stunt men get "kicked" in the head. There are tricks you can do to make someone think they have been kicked, hit, slapped, when they haven't, or at least haven't been as hard as they think they've been.

Now, I don't advise this sort of thing. It takes someone very skilled to do it properly (and I am not, I've just seen it done). But there are definitely ways to do it without causing harm, if one is really interested in pushing that particular extreme (I'm not).
 
Not a very good analogy/example. Because the the intervening variable of "might get sacked if I don't agree to these lax rules", I would consider this to be a coercive situation and not truly consensual.

In many cases the reverse is true. I.e. a company has to make an effort to get its employees to comply with health and safety legislation who moan that every change to the work environment, procedures or clothing is "health and safety gone mad!". So the correspondence would be company <=> older partner and employee <=> younger partner.

But let's not push the analogy much further than that.;)
 
The same way stunt men get "kicked" in the head. There are tricks you can do to make someone think they have been kicked, hit, slapped, when they haven't, or at least haven't been as hard as they think they've been.

Now, I don't advise this sort of thing. It takes someone very skilled to do it properly (and I am not, I've just seen it done). But there are definitely ways to do it without causing harm, if one is really interested in pushing that particular extreme (I'm not).

I think anyone kicking people in the head and not causing harm is lucky rather than skilled.
 
In many cases the reverse is true. I.e. a company has to make an effort to get its employees to comply with health and safety legislation who moan that every change to the work environment, procedures or clothing is "health and safety gone mad!". So the correspondence would be company <=> older partner and employee <=> younger partner.

But let's not push the analogy much further than that.;)

Well, I can say that I've had former jobs when the company screwed me. :D
 
Ah ok, thank you for the clarification. Still not sure what I think of that (thinking how much an older lover would have been just the ticket when I was 16....)

I honestly think a lot of people at that age fantasize about an older lover, more so than someone their own age. I know I did.

But there's a stigma still with age. For example, my girlfriend is 14 years younger than I am. And although she is an adult, I still get looks and comments about how I really should find someone my own age.
 
But he can operate a heavy piece of machinery that is known to be dangerous to himself and others without adult supervision. Yes, we regulate driving, but we still allow 16 year olds to drive by themselves despite knowing that they lack the experience and decision-making ability of adults. We don't even freak out about the idea when a kid gets in an accident.

And the moment we have a comparable testing and licensing situation-
As soon as we have required government inspection of bondage gear-
As soon as high schools offer bondage ed courses-

Then I won't say a peep about the risks.

We regulate the crap out of driving, so it was a poor example for you to pick. People in this thread keep accusing me of asking for special treatment of BDSM, but it's really the opposite. They're calling for it to be immune from the regulations we already apply to other risks, like driving
 
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And the moment we have a comparable testing and licensing situation-
As soon as we have required government inspection of bondage gear-
As soon as high schools offer bondage ed courses-

Then I won't say a peep about the risks.

We regulate the crap out of driving, so it was a poor example for you to pick. People in this thread keep accusing me of asking for special treatment of BDSM, but it's really the opposite. They're calling for it to be immune from the regulations we already apply to other risks, like driving

Good idea!

Also, to make sure that no one gets an STD, let's make the government regulations so that every man wears a condom. And have everyone tested for STDs at least two weeks before having sex with a new partner.

After all, if we're going to regulate BDSM sex to make it government safe, we should regulate ALL sex to make it government safe!

.....:rolleyes:
 
Most child abuse and rape isn't reported either. I don't think we can conclude that just because our personal experiences do not include unfortunate events and/or such events are not reported in the press very often that such events don't occur far more frequently.

But child abuse and rape are reported often. Of course, they have nothing to do with the OP or the wider topic, but they do make for provocative pseudo-arguments. I don't think we can conclude that just because we don't encounter, hear about or read of something in the press that it occurs a lot. Do you? Really? Why? Wishful thinking? Because it would suit your position?

Having no direct experience of BDSM I have some questions:

Do safe words get used much?

How does the dom know how far and long to go?

Is the dom just carrying out the pre-specified orders of the sub, or does the dom have flexibility in the type and degree of punishments he or she inflicts?

BDSM is a sexuality, just as is homosexuality. There aren't any universal dos and donts for either.

Safe words get used a lot, it's how we can ensure something is consensual while still allowing role play and so on. The traffic light system is widely used - "red" meaning 'stop now' and 'amber' meaning 'oh, I wasn't expecting that, I'm not sure, slow down, let me get used to the idea' (or words to that effect...)

The dom would hopefully know how far to go from discussion prior to the 'scene', though most every sub I've known wants to have their limits pushed. How long to go might also be included in that discussion, though of course a safe word would leave the matter in the hands of the sub (if he or she had had enough). 'More' or 'again' would no doubt serve if he or she hadn't had enough.

I'm assuming you have some (vanilla) sexual experience? How long and how much foreplay, or penetration, or such, do vanilla couples engage in? How do you know how much and how long? Is it through verbal and non-verbal communication with your partner/s? Why do you suppose it would be any different for, eg, a caning?

Your final question is case dependent, but any Dom/me worth their salt establishes boundaries and so on before engaging in anything.

I posted earlier that I think that both the absolute and relative ages of both partners should be taken into account, with the relative age becoming less important as the age of the youngest partner increases. I also think sexual behaviour could be split up into broad categories with different repercussions for the older partner if a complaint is made by either the younger partner or their legal guardian.

If someone has a 'legal gaurdian', they shouldn't be having sex at all - whether straight, gay, vanilla or kinky. Can you elaborate on your plan? At what age can someone decide to have sex with someone twice their age? What categories of sexuality require people to older before they can express them as their straight vanilla counterparts did at an earlier age? And why?


The relevance is the belief that "she was asking for it" many people hold when women complain after the fact that a partner went too far. If another 16 year old engaged in exactly the same behaviour as this woman did but complained afterwards about the bruising and/or any other injuries, should she just chalk it up to experience?

'Many' people hold that strange belief, do they? You know the drill round here...

Yes, she should just chalk it up to experience. That's how people learn and grow and mature. Or we could have a system where everything is someone else's fault and nobody is responsible for their own choices I suppose.


I don't think it's as simple as that.

It is as simple as that. Abuse is something you didn't ask for. If you want it, if it's an expression of your sexuality, if you ask for it, it isn't abuse. Being punched in the face by an angry lover or teacher or family member or stranger or police officer is abuse. Being punched in the face by an opponent in a boxing ring is not abuse. Simple.
 
Originally Posted by Senex
You don't think I would have married Sophia Loren, Brigitte Bardot, or Rachael Welch when I was 24? hehehe...Angie Dickinson, Jenny Agutter, Diana Rigg. (I have a long list of super hot older women.)

I'm a guy. We have double standards and if a female college professor took me under her wing it would not have been as evil as a male professor taking a female student under his wing. It's just the way the world is.
[/QUOTE]

Bookitty:
I'd rather you didn't paint all men with the same brush. Not all men think that women should not be allowed the same level of sexual exploration. If a college professor is not exploiting their position of authority, there is nothing "evil" about a relationship with a student, although it may be ill-advised.

Woman are more vulnerable at an earlier age. Maybe I'm wrong. More discussion is needed. I used to and can again teach a class at the local community college ;)
Wise Senex said:
I'm a guy. We have double standards and if a female college professor took me under her wing it would not have been as evil as a male professor taking a female student under his wing. It's just the way the world is.
Arcade22 replied:
Shouldn't you edit this last bit so that it correctly reads: "This is my own personal, biased and irrational view about age-differences in relationships"?

I'm still waiting on an explanation on how one would make a meaningful distinction between anal sex, which can be very painful and risky depending on how rough and/or inexperienced one is, and normal BDSM. If anal sex with someone under 18 would be prohibited then any guy-on-guy action would be terribly lame...

If you want to make this about anal sex I will unequivocally state when I was in college anal sex was not an expectation of the undergraduate male. I had a wonderful girlfriend when I was an undergraduate who I had the best vanilla sex of all-time with who offered me anal sex but in a "if you want it, I'll do it" kind of way -- and I refused her offer. Today after seeing all this pornography on the internet maybe even a gentleman like myself would have ridiculous expectations. I wouldn't want to be advising a daughter today.

I believe in kink -- I just believe women are pressured at too young an age today because of immature young mens expectations from internet porn.


Bookitty says(with a smile):
But, I have the advantage of knowing several pro doms. It's not my scene but it's not particularly scary.
hehehe... Once you go amateur spanker you never go back ;)
 
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Bookitty:

Woman are more vulnerable at an earlier age. Maybe I'm wrong. More discussion is needed. I used to and can again teach a class at the local community college ;)

Dude, I see the smiley and all but how about, just once, we have a discussion where women are something slightly more than a place to rest your penis for a few seconds.

Both sexes can be frighteningly naive and terribly fragile when they are young. At the same age, both sexes can also be complete unrepentant horn-dogs. Sometimes on the same day.

The goal of a mutually respectful and sexually accommodating society is that everyone has the ability to set their own boundaries not those of out-dated social constructs. The girl in the OP was actually better at this than many 16 year olds. She know what experience she wanted, went out and found someone willing to give it to her and took the time to spell out exactly what her needs and boundaries were.

While I would not be immediately comfortable with my niece/nephew acting out that specific scenario, I would be very proud of them if they had the foresight to manage their sex lives that well. To go into it expecting a positive result for both parties but be smart enough to know what they want out of it. It seems far more healthy than the traditional patterns which force my niece to be the guardian of the gates, give her full responsibility for pace and/or saying no. Or for my nephew to try to push for sex with every female he meets regardless of her feelings.
 
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Dude, I see the smiley and all but how about, just once, we have a discussion where women are something slightly more than a place to rest your penis for a few seconds.
Those women who said that shouldn't be trusted -- it was at least a few minutes:rolleyes:
OK, it is all seriousness from here on out.
Both sexes can be frighteningly naive and terribly fragile when they are young. At the same age, both sexes can also be complete unrepentant horn-dogs. Sometimes on the same day.

The goal of a mutually respectful and sexually accommodating society is that everyone has the ability to set their own boundaries not those of out-dated social constructs. The girl in the OP was actually better at this than many 16 year olds. She know what experience she wanted, went out and found someone willing to give it to her and took the time to spell out exactly what her needs and boundaries were.
I understand what you are saying.
However, in many cases young women can be exploited by older boys/men.
A few young women might know what they want -- but, unfortunately, many other young women are in vulnerable positions and right and wrong is hard to determine and let's err on the side of letting them turn 18.
While I would not be immediately comfortable with my niece/nephew acting out that specific scenario, I would be very proud of them if they had the foresight to manage their sex lives that well. To go into it expecting a positive result for both parties but be smart enough to know what they want out of it. It seems far more healthy than the traditional patterns which force my niece to be the guardian of the gates, give her full responsibility for pace and/or saying no. Or for my nephew to try to push for sex with every female he meets regardless of her feelings.
Wow, I was immature at 16 and and I couldn't push or guard anything. (and that's not saying anything because I wasn't mature at 16.
Here is a picture of me at my school play at 16...
Brigadoon.jpg


The girl under my left arm was my girl friend and she was the prettiest girl in the school (in my eyes) and we never had sex. Look at my hair. I was an idiot. 16 year olds are idiots (at least I was).

However, I am no longer 16 now ;)
 

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