Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

23_Tauri said:
As for daughter of 10. You’re an intelligent debater, cavemonster, why stoop to that strawman?
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A strawman would be if I acted as though you'd said it was fine for your 10 year old to engage in BDSM sexual play. I'm assuming the opposite, but I gave you room to correct me.

Pretty much all societies have levels at which we feel comfortable letting young people manage their own risks. In the US, that is managed by parents, by laws, and by businesses they interact with.

We have separate age requirements for drinking, having sex, smoking, enlisting in the military, renting a car, and on and on.
I'd imagine that you might think it was adorable if your 10 year old were kissing her classmate out behind the swings at recess, but that you would be a bit concerned if she were hung up by her nipples in a 40 year old guy's basement dungeon. Please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth.

It is completely reasonable that there are levels of sexual freedom that parents would be comfortable with their kids having at certain ages. For instance, I see nothing wrong with prostitution in general, I think legalizing it generally has a positive effect for those in the trade. I think if a 15 year old wants to have sex with a peer or even with someone older, they are reasonably prepared to take that risk, but I don't think they are prepared to make the descision to be a prostitute.

We already create levels of risk we allow youth to take on, and unless you're comfortable with your fifth grader in the dungeon, you agree with me that lines can and should be drawn, even if we disagree about where exactly that should be.
 
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Cavemonster said:
I apologize if that's how it came across. It was not my intention. I trust my meaning is clear now?
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Yes. Sorry if I got carried away.
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23_Tauri said:
it is indefensible that this chap should be prosecuted.
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Anything related to sexuality can be prosecuted in Sweden. For example a wikileaks founder having consensual sex with women can be later prosecuted as "rape".
 
Professor Yaffle said:
Having lines that we are comfortable with=/=wanting to make anything over that line illegal.
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I absolutely agree.
But I do think it's reasonable for legal protections to be in place.

If there were no such thing as an age of consent, and a 40 year old wanted to hang your 10 year old daughter up in his basement dungeon, and she said yes, what could you as a parent do? Again, I'm using the extreme example for clarity, not to make a direct comparison to the case in the OP.

We do routinely use law to provide these kinds of protections. We also use commerce and social conventions, true.

Remember that in the case of the OP, although 16 is past the age of sexual consent in Sweden, she is still legally a minor until 18. This means that her parents are responsible for her welfare. I repeat, 16 is still a minor in many legal senses. It means, if they don't make sure she has food to eat, a safe place to live etc. they are subject to criminal charges. Again, I'm not intimately familiar with Sweden's system, but this appears to be the case there, as it is here. As long as they are legally responsible for her welfare, I think it makes sense for them to have some legal tools to ensure it.
 
Hey Cavemonster, care to answer?

Arcade22 said:
Well then we need to know what the "extreme levels" are. Something that's "rough and extreme" to someone is "tame and boring" to someone else.

Is bondage extreme? Is using handcuffs, binding with rope or something like that extreme? Slapping? Cutting? Choking? Holding someones hair tight? Urinating on someone?

Should the "extreme levels" always be legal when we're talking about "adults"?
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bookitty said:
Personally - this case makes me sad. A 16 year-old who is already into BSDM that leaves marks? Shouldn't you work up to that? Maybe explore less dramatic sexual play for a few years. (I've got John Cleese in my head saying "What's wrong with a kiss, boy?") As a concerned auntie-type, I worry about her safety in the hands of a man who enjoys bruising young girls
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Strange as it may seem, it's entirely possible to want to inflict pain on somebody not only whilst you care about them deeply, but because you care about them deeply.

There are many in the BDSM world who wouldn't be slightly interested in inflicting pain on somebody they didn't know and care about.
 
Arcade22 said:
Hey Cavemonster, care to answer?
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Ah, apologies, I started a reponse, but got distracted by something shiny :)

This to me reads as Loki's wager again. Something exists on a continuum, so no distinction can be drawn? If you can't say exactly where my head ends and my neck begins, then you can't chop off my head?

Legally, I'm not familiar with the Swedish system, but I would be surprised if it differed substantially from the US in these realms. Please correct me if I'm too far off.

We have legally recognized ways of charging people with assault and/or battery (The terminology changes from place to place). Normally hitting someone with a stick hard enough to leave bruises would qualify. Now friends can still wrestle, or play touch football, but the law is generally not bad at differentiating. You can question their ability to do this, but most first world law enforcement makes this judgement on a daily basis, and they in general do a decent job of it.

The issue here is of consent as a defense to a charge that already exists on the lawbooks Some jurisdictions allow it, some don't, many just place different levels of value on it, based on things like the extent of harm.

There are also laws against endangering a minor (Remember, even though 16 is the age of consent to sex, it is legally a minor in most other legal realms). Again, I don't know what the specific laws are in Sweden, but in the US they vary by state. I would be surprised if there was no such legislation in your country.

So the issue isn't creating some new crime, but whether or not to allow consent as a defense for existing criminal definitions. I might suggest that anything that could be charged as endangering a minor not have an exception just because they happen to be having sex. I would also think that a consent defense for assault and battery wouldn't be available until the subject is... well a bit older than I'd say.

We're not creating from whole cloth a way to police sexual exploits. We're talking about the ways in which sex and consent effect laws already on the books.

Edit: Apparently, Sweden has a particularly strict anti-spanking law stating "a child may not be subjected to physical punishment or other injurious or humiliating treatment". A "child" is legally defined elsewhere in Swedish law as anyone under 18. So the question again is should sex be an exception to the laws on the books? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure consent isn't an accepted defense for the spanking law in other circumstances.
 
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Cavemonster said:
Do you believe your 16 year old daughter has the right to consent to be killed and eaten, and there should be no liabilty from the much older man who carried it out?
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The fact that you highlight the man being "much older" is perhaps what lies at the heart of this matter. People are perhaps as uncomfortable with the age difference as the BDSM aspect, and the latter provides the stick to beat the former with (no apologies for the pun there).
 
Information Analyst said:
Paintballs are still pretty damn painful, and the bruises last quite a while!
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Absolutely. But there is a clear line between bullets that bruise and bullets that kill. Paintball has a particular battlefield, a particular time and place, and it's separated from the rest of life by a number of conventions.

BDSM is also protected and separated by a number of conventions, when practiced safely and sanely. But the lines are potentially blurrier. My paintball gun won't suddenly start shooting real bullets, no matter what I decide, but a rope around a neck is dependent on all participants continuing to be really smart and communicate really well.
 
Information Analyst said:
The fact that you highlight the man being "much older" is perhaps what lies at the heart of this matter. People are perhaps as uncomfortable with the age difference as the BDSM aspect, and the latter provides the stick to beat the former with (no apologies for the pun there).
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I think I've stated my concerns clearly in a number of posts. No need to armchair psychoanalyze.
 
Cavemonster said:
Absolutely. But there is a clear line between bullets that bruise and bullets that kill. Paintball has a particular battlefield, a particular time and place, and it's separated from the rest of life by a number of conventions.

BDSM is also protected and separated by a number of conventions, when practiced safely and sanely. But the lines are potentially blurrier. My paintball gun won't suddenly start shooting real bullets, no matter what I decide, but a rope around a neck is dependent on all participants continuing to be really smart and communicate really well.
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How common is asphyxiation in BDSM? I can understand how the idea of relinquishing control to the point of real danger could be erotic within that context. But that seems as if it would be an extreme. Then again, my knowledge is second-hand and lacking gory details.
 
bookitty said:
How common is asphyxiation in BDSM? I can understand how the idea of relinquishing control to the point of real danger could be erotic within that context. But that seems as if it would be an extreme. Then again, my knowledge is second-hand and lacking gory details.
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Not only that (that breath play isn't the most common form of fetish play by any means), the scenario in the OP did not involve anything that could result in death of the participants. So I think it's a strawman.
 
Cavemonster said:
Absolutely. But there is a clear line between bullets that bruise and bullets that kill. Paintball has a particular battlefield, a particular time and place, and it's separated from the rest of life by a number of conventions.

BDSM is also protected and separated by a number of conventions, when practiced safely and sanely. But the lines are potentially blurrier. My paintball gun won't suddenly start shooting real bullets, no matter what I decide, but a rope around a neck is dependent on all participants continuing to be really smart and communicate really well.
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Well, you can stretch the threat in every single paintball game to potential loss of sight, which is also dependent on, "all participants continuing to be really smart and communicate really well." I would imagine that noose-play, on the other hand, isn't essential for every BDSM encounter.
 
Information Analyst said:
The fact that you highlight the man being "much older" is perhaps what lies at the heart of this matter. People are perhaps as uncomfortable with the age difference as the BDSM aspect, and the latter provides the stick to beat the former with (no apologies for the pun there).
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It does make me wonder whether the parents would have been as outraged if their daughter's lover had been ten years' younger.
 
bookitty said:
How common is asphyxiation in BDSM? I can understand how the idea of relinquishing control to the point of real danger could be erotic within that context. But that seems as if it would be an extreme. Then again, my knowledge is second-hand and lacking gory details.
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It is an extreme. However, someone inexpert at bondage could cause it accidentally by placing ropes in the wrong places... Which, I hope is what Cavemonster is getting at. If he's not, and he's actually talking about breath play as if it's a regular aspect of BDSM, then he's really depicting BDSM inappropriately.
 
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