Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

[Bikewer]

I'm a little hesitant because of the age situation; 16 falls into the "iffy" category regarding informed consent regardless of the legality....
However, the practices described are certainly not outside of usual S-M play...

Not that there have not been problems, mostly due to inexperienced players who indulge in dangerous or poorly set-up scenes without really knowing what they're doing. "Breath play" and erotic asphyxiation can go bad in a hurry. Likewise suspension play... Using improvised equipment or applying same improperly can result in severe or even fatal injuries.
There is a general feeling among "vanilla" folks that the S-M scene is one of the cruel, sadistic dominant abusing the emotionally-damaged submissive for his/her pleasure.
They'd likely be shocked to learn that it's almost always the opposite; the scene is designed for the pleasure of the submissive partner, with the "dominant" often supplying only window-dressing.

 

[Arcade22]

Him specifically? Only if there are already laws in place that address this. People in the future who engage very young teens in power and pain play at extreme levels? Might be a good idea.

Well then we need to know what the "extreme levels" are. Something that's "rough and extreme" to someone is "tame and boring" to someone else.

Is bondage extreme? Is using handcuffs, binding with rope or something like that extreme? Slapping? Cutting? Choking? Holding someones hair tight? Urinating on someone?

Should the "extreme levels" always be legal when we're talking about "adults"?

 

[Cavemonster]

But you just contradicted yourself. First you say that BDSM is about one party having power over the other, then you make the - correct- observation that subs are equal to Doms in terms of the relationship.

The word I used was "premise" meaning that it's the idea behind the game. When you say that subs being equal to doms is the "correct" observation, you mean that's the ideal situation when both parties are safe sane and intelligent. This is not the case for all.

You're making an assumption about teenagers that I don't accept. A 16 year old is quite capable of knowing the difference between fantasy role play and reality. If not, we'd have a real problem on our hands with video games, right?

In videogames and books, the fantasy takes place on a different media than reality. There is a real physical separation. In this sort of play, you are the medium.

As an example of the porousness of roleplay that involves real people, take a look at the Stanford Prison Experiment.. And there, we were talking about college students.

When was ripping a hole in the side of someone and poking your penis in it "part of sex"? Hell, I've been into BDSM for a while and I've never heard of anyone doing that. But then I don't know any necrophiliacs.

The sticking the penis in there makes it part of sex. It was an extreme example to show that just because people do something behind closed doors and it involves their genitals, and both people say it's ok, it may really not be ok.

What if a teenager had got similar bruising from playing football in the park with a 30 year old? Would that have been assault? Or is the problem because there was sexual pleasure involved?

There are currently many state laws in the works to increase safety regulation on youth sports. Concussions and brain injuries are a big deal, for instance.

We do keep track of the risks adults create for younger people.

In the case of the OP, if she got tired or slipped and ripped of a nipple, would that be acceptable for you? You can say that if he was a good dom, that would be impossible, but we don't know what kind of Dom this guy is. Was he experienced? You seem to have more blind faith in this guy than I would. If my 15 year old was with a gymnastics trainer, I would want to know that the guy was up to regulation, had experience, that his facility was inspected and insured. If my 16 year old were driving a car, I'd want to know that it passed a safety inspection. Why have a blind faith in this unknown sexual partner that I doubt you'd have with any other set of risks?

People keep bringing up youth sports as a comparison. In youth sports, the parents always know where their kids are and what they're doing. Coaches and volunteers are often subject to CORI checks. Practices take place in public.

 

[23_Tauri]

I'm a little hesitant because of the age situation; 16 falls into the "iffy" category regarding informed consent regardless of the legality....
However, the practices described are certainly not outside of usual S-M play...

Not that there have not been problems, mostly due to inexperienced players who indulge in dangerous or poorly set-up scenes without really knowing what they're doing. "Breath play" and erotic asphyxiation can go bad in a hurry. Likewise suspension play... Using improvised equipment or applying same improperly can result in severe or even fatal injuries.
There is a general feeling among "vanilla" folks that the S-M scene is one of the cruel, sadistic dominant abusing the emotionally-damaged submissive for his/her pleasure.
They'd likely be shocked to learn that it's almost always the opposite; the scene is designed for the pleasure of the submissive partner, with the "dominant" often supplying only window-dressing.

I agree with all the above. I would add a couple of things. First, because she is 16 and still being cared for by her parents, then because her mum has found out about it then it's the parents' responsibility to talk to their daughter and make sure she's ok with the relationship. Again, there's no case for bringing in the authorities.

Second, that she's found an older, experienced partner should reassure anyone who is worried about play going wrong. Better this than than two inexperienced youngsters trying to reconstruct a dungeon in their bedrooms.

 

[Cavemonster]

Ok, I've thunked about this now. It's an appeal to emotion because you're using the term 'child abuse'. This is not child abuse. One, she's not a child in the eyes of the law, and two, she was consenting.

Also, reference to shaking a baby is a strawman because she's far from being a baby.

Now, what's your problem again?

You apparently didn't read my post before thinking about it.
I was not calling the practice child abuse. I was using child abuse as an example of Loki's Wager, because I had so recently heard Tim Minchin's description and I thought it was a good example of the fallacy.

If you like, I'll say instead "How many hairs in a beard?"

 

[Information Analyst]

In England (possibly UK?) consent is not a valid defence to actual bodily harm. See this controversial case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanner_case

ETA: The reasoning for the House of Lords decision:

Although as noted on the Wikipedia page, the above case is somewhat notorious in that it involved the successful prosecution of gay men for acts that previously and subsequently were deemed not illegal for straights (e.g. branding).

 

[Seismosaurus]

It's difficult to judge the case because we have few details.

Here's one scenario : the guy and girl made contact somehow (internet?) They liked one another. They discussed each others fantasies and found them mutually pleasurable. They discussed what each one would like to happen were they to meet in real life, and how far it might go. They find there is a lot of overlap in their desires, though it's not total (it very rarely is). They negotiate carefully to establish what would and would not be acceptable to each. They discuss safety concerns (what if she's cut? What if it won't stop bleeding? Will medical supplies be available? Is there a hospital nearby?) and establish what will be done if that happens. They discuss what kind of and how much aftercare she may require and how it will be provided. They establish a way for the girl to let the guy know if he strays into territory she's genuinely unhappy with during the scene (what's her safeword? What if she's gagged and can't speak?).

They establish safety routines. Both leave details about the other with a friend who they will call at prearranged times to let them know they are safe. They meet in person in a public place over a coffee and chat. After a couple of such meetings, they have a meeting in some private place where he does the described things to her and she loves it. Noticing the bruises, her mom calls the police.

If - and I know it's a big if - that's what happened, then prosecuting him is utterly absurd.

And if you are thinking "who the hell would go through all that" then you don't know much about BDSM. What I've described is utterly routine within that lifestyle, and many would refuse to lay a hand (or indeed an implement) on anybody or have a hand lain on them without it as a bare minimum.

 

[Skeptic]

It's odd that folks here think nothing of being on the side of a sexual sadomasochist who grieveously injured a girl half his age.

 

[23_Tauri]

The word I used was "premise" meaning that it's the idea behind the game. When you say that subs being equal to doms is the "correct" observation, you mean that's the ideal situation when both parties are safe sane and intelligent. This is not the case for all.

On what grounds do you assume that both the teenage girl and the man are not “safe, sane and intelligent”? Seems pretty intelligent to me to choose and older man who knows what he’s doing.

In videogames and books, the fantasy takes place on a different media than reality. There is a real physical separation. In this sort of play, you are the medium.

Ok, maybe I picked a poor analogy. How about paint-balling? Laser Quest? Battle re-enactment societies? Amateur dramatics? I think teenagers do all these things, yes? And adults are pretty ok with it.

As an example of the porousness of roleplay that involves real people, take a look at the Stanford Prison Experiment.. And there, we were talking about college students.

Yes, we’re all capable of inflicting pain and suffering on others but does that mean we shouldn’t allow consensual pain? You also seem to imply that people who engage in BDSM don’t know when to use the safe word. I don’t remember there being any safe words in Stanford Prison.

The sticking the penis in there makes it part of sex. It was an extreme example to show that just because people do something behind closed doors and it involves their genitals, and both people say it's ok, it may really not be ok.

It’s not an example because it’s not a real world example, you just made it up. Unless you can tell me that you know someone who does this. As I said before, there are a lot of fetishes out there but drilling holes in your partner isn’t one I’m familiar with.

There are currently many state laws in the works to increase safety regulation on youth sports. Concussions and brain injuries are a big deal, for instance.

We do keep track of the risks adults create for younger people.

But would you go to the authorities if your child got some bruises and cuts from playing football, even if your child said “it’s ok, I’m fine, I had fun out there!” ?

ETA: if the teenage girl had suffered concussion or brain injury, then yes it would be a big deal. But she didn't.

In the case of the OP, if she got tired or slipped and ripped of a nipple, would that be acceptable for you? You can say that if he was a good dom, that would be impossible, but we don't know what kind of Dom this guy is. Was he experienced? You seem to have more blind faith in this guy than I would. If my 15 year old was with a gymnastics trainer, I would want to know that the guy was up to regulation, had experience, that his facility was inspected and insured. If my 16 year old were driving a car, I'd want to know that it passed a safety inspection. Why have a blind faith in this unknown sexual partner that I doubt you'd have with any other set of risks?

I would have much faith in my daughter’s choice of partner whether her boyfriend was 18 or 30 years old. It’s not a professional relationship so comparisons with gym teachers aren’t relevant. This is her boyfriend. Is he unknown to the parents? Well, I’d ask to meet my 16 year old daughter’s sexual partner, I think that would be reasonable and if he’s a decent guy he would be quite happy, possible reassured, to meet the parents.

I would trust my daughter to choose someone who treated her well, which in this case would involve asking her if she has agreed a safe word with him, that he uses contraception, always respects her when she says ‘no’. That kind of thing.

People keep bringing up youth sports as a comparison. In youth sports, the parents always know where their kids are and what they're doing. Coaches and volunteers are often subject to CORI checks. Practices take place in public.

Ok, would it make you feel better if she always told her parents when she was going to spend the evening with her boyfriend? They’d know where she was, and what she was up to.

As for checks, I wouldn’t want to have to do some legal check on my daughter’s boyfriend. Why, when she’s not a minor? And it’s not like you get a certificate from the Institute of Fetish Studies when you’ve passed your Dom exams.

 

[Seismosaurus]

It's odd that folks here think nothing of being on the side of a sexual sadomasochist who grieveously injured a girl half his age.

What on Earth are you on about? The article mentions "bruises". Since when did a bruise become a grievous injury?

 

[23_Tauri]

You apparently didn't read my post before thinking about it.
I was not calling the practice child abuse. I was using child abuse as an example of Loki's Wager, because I had so recently heard Tim Minchin's description and I thought it was a good example of the fallacy.

If you like, I'll say instead "How many hairs in a beard?"

I did read your post, and understood it.

You said:

You're invoking Loki's wager here. Since there is a possible gradation, a line can't be drawn? Poppycock! You can say the same thing about child abuse. Tim Minchin makes a joke in a song about being frustrated with his baby. What is the line between patting and hitting? What is the line between bouncing and shaking?

Just because a continuum exists, doesn't mean a useful distinction can't be drawn.

The reference to child abuse was an appeal to emotion. Your use of an analogy referring to child abuse implied that the incident in the OP could be construed to be child abuse. You continued "what is the line between patting and hitting?" again implying that patting (slap on the bot that a teenage boy might do to a girl the same age as him when first experimenting in the bedroom) is ok, but that hitting was not (and that this was the equivalent of a caning carried out by an older man).

Sorry if you weren't drawing that parallel by referring to Minchin's joke, but that's how I read it.

 

[Cavemonster]

On what grounds do you assume that both the teenage girl and the man are not “safe, sane and intelligent”? Seems pretty intelligent to me to choose and older man who knows what he’s doing.

I don't assume they're not "safe sane and intelligent" I acknowledge that we have absolutely no idea how safe sane and intelligent they are. If you think that a 16 year old girl choosing an older sexual partner is convincing evidence of how safe sane and intelligent the two of them are, I don't know what to say to that. I'm not saying it's evidence to the contrary, but it sertainly doesn't tell us anything.

Ok, maybe I picked a poor analogy. How about paint-balling? Laser Quest? Battle re-enactment societies? Amateur dramatics? I think teenagers do all these things, yes? And adults are pretty ok with it.

I don't think I have to keep hammering this home. In BDSM, participants must have a complex system to draw the line between fantasy and reality. all those things you name have built in checks separating them from reality. The bullets are not real in paint ball or laser tag, or civil war reenactment. The alligator clips on this girl's nipples are real.

It’s not an example because it’s not a real world example, you just made it up. Unless you can tell me that you know someone who does this. As I said before, there are a lot of fetishes out there but drilling holes in your partner isn’t one I’m familiar with.

You want a real world example? The german cannibal who killed and ate a "consenting" victim. Do you believe your 16 year old daughter has the right to consent to be killed and eaten, and there should be no liabilty from the much older man who carried it out?

But would you go to the authorities if your child got some bruises and cuts from playing football, even if your child said “it’s ok, I’m fine, I had fun out there!” ?

If my kid got a concussion, or broke her back from a coach pushing them too hard and ignoring safety practices? It wouldn't matter how much my kid said it was ok.

ETA: if the teenage girl had suffered concussion or brain injury, then yes it would be a big deal. But she didn't.

The fact that she wasn't injured may be evidence that they were doing everything right, or it may be that they were lucky. It isn't hard to find examples of injuries, and even death from BDSM play.

I would have much faith in my daughter’s choice of partner whether her boyfriend was 18 or 30 years old. It’s not a professional relationship so comparisons with gym teachers aren’t relevant. This is her boyfriend. Is he unknown to the parents? Well, I’d ask to meet my 16 year old daughter’s sexual partner, I think that would be reasonable and if he’s a decent guy he would be quite happy, possible reassured, to meet the parents.

I would trust my daughter to choose someone who treated her well, which in this case would involve asking her if she has agreed a safe word with him, that he uses contraception, always respects her when she says ‘no’. That kind of thing.

I'm glad that you have such faith. But 16 year olds often make very poor choices, so on a broader scale, it would be unintelligent for all parents to have that same faith. Would you have the same faith if your daughter were 10? And dating a 40 year old? If not, you've drawn a line, as have I.

Ok, would it make you feel better if she always told her parents when she was going to spend the evening with her boyfriend? They’d know where she was, and what she was up to.

It's not about making me feel better, it's about her parents, who are still her legal guardians.

As for checks, I wouldn’t want to have to do some legal check on my daughter’s boyfriend. Why, when she’s not a minor? And it’s not like you get a certificate from the Institute of Fetish Studies when you’ve passed your Dom exams.

Actually, there are quite a few organizations and training for BDSM practices, and if someone were hanging me up by my nipples, I'd feel much better knowing they had passed one of these classes. I don't get on a roller coaster that hasn't passed safety inspection.

 

[Cavemonster]

I did read your post, and understood it.

You said:

The reference to child abuse was an appeal to emotion. Your use of an analogy referring to child abuse implied that the incident in the OP could be construed to be child abuse. You continued "what is the line between patting and hitting?" again implying that patting (slap on the bot that a teenage boy might do to a girl the same age as him when first experimenting in the bedroom) is ok, but that hitting was not (and that this was the equivalent of a caning carried out by an older man).

Sorry if you weren't drawing that parallel by referring to Minchin's joke, but that's how I read it.

I apologize if that's how it came across. It was not my intention. I trust my meaning is clear now?

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's odd that folks here think nothing of being on the side of a sexual sadomasochist who grieveously injured a girl half his age.

While it is conceivable he is an abusive jerk, it is also conceivable that she sought him out and got exactly what she wanted in the situation. The thing is that with out more information it is hard to tell if anything wrong happened.

 

[Arcade22]

...

But Malmö district court does not believe that the beating was serious or that the man shown sufficient ruthlessness and brutality.

The approximately 60 beatings with a wooden stick against the buttocks and thighs had varying strengths and with breaks in between. The same was the around 30 beatings with a ruler against the genital area. The girl and the man had also agreed to "stop words" before, and bruises and lacerations have been accounted for, according to law.

That consent was voluntary and explicit, and the girl took herself initiated the contact. In about ten days, they discussed what she wanted to do when they met, before she came to the man's apartment.

A relative who later saw the girl's bruises alerted the police.

There is no evidence that she based on age, self-harming behaviors, or otherwise does not understand what she agreed to or that consent was not serious. She also had previous experience with BDSM sex and had knowledge of what she agreed.

http://translate.google.com/transla...riande-dom-om-valdssex-overklagas_5414205.svd

It wasn't forced, she contacted him, the consent was obvious and the fact that it wasn't her first time makes it obvious that she wasn't exploited in any way.

 

[23_Tauri]

I don't think I have to keep hammering this home. In BDSM, participants must have a complex system to draw the line between fantasy and reality. all those things you name have built in checks separating them from reality. The bullets are not real in paint ball or laser tag, or civil war re-enactment. The alligator clips on this girl's nipples are real.

I’ve never played but I believe the bullets in paint ball are real enough to hurt and the pikes and muskets and keg powder used by the Sealed Knot are definitely real.

It’s a bit of a misnomer to talk about fantasy vs reality. It’s real sex play, that the participants are acting out roles doesn’t make it less real. Perhaps I’m splitting hairs here.

And anyway, BDSM has ways to 'draw the line'. Safe word, anyone? Just like when someone’s had enough of being paint-balled or charged by a member of The Sealed Knot, you can say “I’ve had enough now, would you be so kind as to remove your pike from my nether regions so I can retire to the pub?”.

You want a real world example? The german cannibal who killed and ate a "consenting" victim. Do you believe your 16 year old daughter has the right to consent to be killed and eaten, and there should be no liabilty from the much older man who carried it out?

Forgive me, I thought we were talking about fetishes. Not murder.

If my kid got a concussion, or broke her back from a coach pushing them too hard and ignoring safety practices? It wouldn't matter how much my kid said it was ok.

The fact that she wasn't injured may be evidence that they were doing everything right, or it may be that they were lucky. It isn't hard to find examples of injuries, and even death from BDSM play.

Poor ol’ Michael Hutchence, eh? And he was on his own at the time! Injuries are common to members of the Sealed Knot too. That’s why they always have a medical tent at their ‘musters’.

I'm glad that you have such faith. But 16 year olds often make very poor choices, so on a broader scale, it would be unintelligent for all parents to have that same faith. Would you have the same faith if your daughter were 10? And dating a 40 year old? If not, you've drawn a line, as have I.

I would respect her right to choose her lover. If I had a 16 year old daughter I would want to meet with the gentleman no matter whether he was the 16 year old boy next door or Hugh Hefner. I accept that 16 year olds aren’t that world wise and that as her guardian I would have a duty to protect her. I would want to know that she is consenting to the sex play and that she wasn’t so afraid of this chap that she wasn’t able to say no. But she’s old enough to have sex and therefore old enough to have the boyfriend of her choosing.

As for daughter of 10. You’re an intelligent debater, cavemonster, why stoop to that strawman?

 

[23_Tauri]

http://translate.google.com/transla...riande-dom-om-valdssex-overklagas_5414205.svd

It wasn't forced, she contacted him, the consent was obvious and the fact that it wasn't her first time makes it obvious that she wasn't exploited in any way.

Thank you for that much needed clarification, Arcade22.

In which case, it is indefensible that this chap should be prosecuted.

 

[bookitty]

Personally - this case makes me sad. A 16 year-old who is already into BSDM that leaves marks? Shouldn't you work up to that? Maybe explore less dramatic sexual play for a few years. (I've got John Cleese in my head saying "What's wrong with a kiss, boy?") As a concerned auntie-type, I worry about her safety in the hands of a man who enjoys bruising young girls, even though I have no way of knowing if there was any coercion, or if this man's tastes run to unsafe play.

Legally - The girl is over the age of consent. She contacted him, consent was given, the bruising was within the boundaries of safe play, there was no permanent damage. Neither of them should face legal repercussions.

 

[Megalodon]

It wasn't forced, she contacted him, the consent was obvious and the fact that it wasn't her first time makes it obvious that she wasn't exploited in any way.

That does it! Hang him!







for the humor impaired...

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Personally - this case makes me sad. A 16 year-old who is already into BSDM that leaves marks? Shouldn't you work up to that? Maybe explore less dramatic sexual play for a few years. (I've got John Cleese in my head saying "What's wrong with a kiss, boy?") As a concerned auntie-type, I worry about her safety in the hands of a man who enjoys bruising young girls, even though I have no way of knowing if there was any coercion, or if this man's tastes run to unsafe play.

Legally - The girl is over the age of consent. She contacted him, consent was given, the bruising was within the boundaries of safe play, there was no permanent damage. Neither of them should face legal repercussions.

I was mentally composing a post very similar to this when yours appeared and saved me the bother.