VisionFromFeeling - General discussion thread

[desertgal]

Oh. My. Word.

Seriously?

She's just practicing a way to attribute her 'perceptions' to her 'special' type of 'synesthesia', since she'll no longer be able to use the 'paranormal' label after Saturday.



I thought she'd at least wait until after Saturday, but I guess she's getting a head start. I think it's safe to say most of us saw this coming at some point.

 

[pakeha]

Thanks for summing up your excellent posts, Ness36.

 

[Moochie]

I had to look twice -- the first post in this thread was made on 1 April 2009. Hmm...

Thanks again for the common sense, Ness36.


M.

 

[FSM]

VFF,

Those are some damned good questions in Ness36's post. It would be awesome to read your response.

Thank you,

FSM


(P.S. Thanks Ness!)

 

[dlorde]

When you've responded to Ness36's eminently reasonable post, perhaps you could explain why you describe these perceptions as medical perceptions? What has medicine to do with it? Wouldn't 'anatomical' be a more appropriate label?

 

[snoop_doxie]

Thanks for summing up your excellent posts, Ness36.

Seconded Ness36, your post was most educational and enlightening, even for us bored to tears with "wall of text" VFF style

thank you very much.

 

[Ness36]

Thanks for the positive comments FSM, Moochie, and Pakeha. I appreciate it.

I can understand saying vibrations or quantum fields, those are pretty common excuses for paranormal things, but the brand new pixel, scalar and gradient field thing was pretty surprising to me, considering that it doesn't really mean anything. I have never heard that one before.

 

[Gmonster2]

Here she goes again

She is so worried about failing the test she has conviently come up with something else new to be talking about and going on with after the test.


ho hum,cracking up over the stress I think...

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

I can only afford to make a brief reply because I am short on time today.

You have previously said you experience atomic vibrational patterns and can do vibrational algebra to match medicines and illnesses. I explained what vibrational energy of atoms and molecules was. Either the molecules are moving around fast, or the electrons bounce back and forth in the molecule. Neither of these tell you anything about organs or bacteria.

You were explaining thermal vibration, yet there are many other forms of known vibration associated to atoms and molecules. And actually, if someone were able to perceive the electron distribution and nuclei of atoms, and could distinguish apart the different chemical elements, one could piece those together into molecules, larger structures, and even up to tissues and organs. Just a thought.

To my knowledge you had never mentioned the quantum physical wavefunction before with regard to your powers. I then explained that the quantum wavefunction is not mysterious, it only means the distance from the atomic nucleus where the electron has a high probability of being. We all know that electrons are a teeny tiny distance from the nucleus. This tells us nothing about bacteria or kidneys.

I have mentioned it in the original VFF thread. And your description of wavefunctions here describes electron distribution, which, if known, reveals the type of chemical element and the environment that the atoms are in that translate into changes in electron distribution. And how dare you simplify the complexity of electron distribution into the statement, "we all know that electrons are a teeny tiny distance from the nucleus". The exact pattern of electron distribution is very telling, and I am sad that you neglect that. Maybe you are one of those chemists that work on the simplified scale. To you, I presume, atoms are just marbles. What kind of chemist, are you, actually? Definitely not a Physical Chemist, or a Computational Chemist. Nor a Spectroscopist.

Now, you have a new revelation that you see neither the quantum wavefunction, or vibrations but a scalar gradient field. You are trying to impress us with technobabble, because you can no longer use the excuses of atomic molecular vibration, or the quantum wave function. Do you think none of us have a highschool education, or can look up simple science concepts on wikipedia?

The description of gradient is all part of how I have described my experience before, but is now just an extended version.

A Scalar is nothing special- It is a quantity. A scalar field is the quantity varying over distance. I look at mountains, I see a scalar field of altitude, some mountains are tall, some are short.

A scalar field is very special. Knowing a scalar field lets you understand how a quantity is distributed across space, and that is vital for understanding how it will interact with other things.

A gradient- is nothing special- it means the slope of the mountains, If I drew a map of the slopes, some would be steep, some shallow.

What kind of scientist are you? You never appreciated math, did you? Gradients are very important. They are even used heavily in Physics, but then, you are not a Physicist.

So anything we see involves scalars and gradients. Right now I have a scalar and gradient field in my mind of what my face looks like, a steep nose, shallow holes for eyes, etc.You are stating the obvious in a ridiculous way to try to impress people. These are HIGH SCHOOL math concepts!!!!!

I am not trying to impress, I am simply describing what my experience of vibrational information is like. The patterns and shapes that are felt.

If you see vibrations: What is vibrating? Atoms? Molecules? Bacteria? Whole organs?

I primarily feel the vibrations, and those turn into felt images. I experience that what is vibrating is the substance that atoms are made of. And therefore, in larger structures composed of this, the atoms, molecules, bacteria, and whole organs have vibrational patterns based on the substance they are made of, that is vibrating.

If you see quantum wavefunctions? How does knowing where the electrons are tell you about kidneys or bacteria?

Quantum physics wavefunctions are in most cases far from a comprehensive or complete picture of the system that they are describing, because many simplifications and approximations need to be made in order to try to wrap the math around the concept. But I have this sense of systems consisting of vibrations, and it is in part similar to how quantum physics defines things in terms of waves.

So, what kind of Chemist were you? How does electron distribution tell you about kidneys or bacteria? Should you go back to school, perhaps? For instance, in X-ray crystallography, X-ray electromagnetic radiation is targeted on a molecular sample, and the electron distribution on the molecules produce an interference pattern. Sort of like taking the electron pattern, and translating that into a corresponding radiation pattern. Deflected X-rays are detected by the instrument and their magnitudes with respect to various angles of impact with the sample, are recorded, and an actual image of the electron distribution of molecules is obtained. And so, by using the electron distribution, the electron distribution is mapped out and the chemical elements are identified, as are the chemical bonds that connect the atoms and the molecular structure is obtained.

As for the various forms of computational chemistry, where calculations are made with electron distribution, such as electropotential maps, to predict chemical behavior.

Imagine if you could know about electron distribution. You would thereby know about the atoms, because electron distribution is highly indicative of the chemical element. Which then builds up into molecules. And then into any larger structure composed of those molecules, including of course bacteria and kidneys.

If you have another scientific explanation: What is it?

I will discuss that after the IIG Preliminary. I don't have the time today, and I would rather have the data from the Preliminary to guide me. Of course one of my main hypotheses is that I am using involuntary cold reading of external symptoms, that synesthetically translates into corresponding health images.

All your talk of scalars and gradients is another way of saying you see glowing shapes. Just admit it.

The shapes I see are not glowing, actually. And scalars and gradients are a very good way of illustrating experience of shapes and vibrational fields.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

When you've responded to Ness36's eminently reasonable post, perhaps you could explain why you describe these perceptions as medical perceptions? What has medicine to do with it? Wouldn't 'anatomical' be a more appropriate label?

The perceptions contain anatomical structural information, but also information about health, so they would more appropriately be called medical perceptions.

 

[Agatha]

VfF, in the above wall o'text you mention that you were in the transition from sleep to waking, and that you were sleepy. What distinguishes your "spontaneous image" from a hypnopompic hallucination, and what steps have you taken to rule out this mundane explanation of the experience?

 

[pakeha]

<snip> Of course one of my main hypotheses is that I am using involuntary cold reading of external symptoms, that synesthetically translates into corresponding health images. <snip>

And that translates into a paranormal claim?

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

VfF, in the above wall o'text you mention that you were in the transition from sleep to waking, and that you were sleepy. What distinguishes your "spontaneous image" from a hypnopompic hallucination, and what steps have you taken to rule out this mundane explanation of the experience?

Good question. I was awake, but more relaxed than usually. What indicates to me that it was not an experience that took place in my mind alone, was that the cramp from my intestine was a very real physical experience. And I have every reason to believe that the cramp was real and not imaginary, especially since I had eaten so much raw food without drinking and that will cause it, and because it was quite obvious and real. If you are all next going to sincerely suggest that my physical sensations of my body are also all imaginary and false memories, then I will leave this JREF Forum and not return, because it won't be worth it. Then you might as well tell me that I do not exist at all, and that I myself am an illusion and no one is even typing these keys. So, don't go overboard with these allegations, I think I know when something happens. And I did detect the missing kidney in Dr. Carlson. It wasn't a false memory, sorry.

And that translates into a paranormal claim?

Well, certainly, when the perceptions depict information that should not be accessible to ordinary senses of perception, and prove to be accurate.

 

[Ness36]

VisionFromFeeling:

First of all you ask what kind of chemist or scientist I am: I will answer you: An Awesome one!!!!!! : )

You were explaining thermal vibration, yet there are many other forms of known vibration associated to atoms and molecules.

1.) I explained molecules bouncing around. This kinetic energy is measured as temperature.

2.) I also explained atomic vibration of electrons on their bonds. This is what allows atoms to absorb and emit electromagnetic waves.

These are not just thermal vibrations; they are related to the energy in the system. What are these other forms of vibration then? If you don’t sense molecules bouncing around, or electrons vibrating on their bonds, what vibration are you sensing?

And actually, if someone were able to perceive the electron distribution and nuclei of atoms, and could distinguish apart the different chemical elements, one could piece those together into molecules, larger structures, and even up to tissues and organs.

Are you telling me you can see a kidney from the ground up? You can see each billions of electrons, atoms, molecules, that make up a kidney? This is like being able to know the exact location and velocity of every speck of dust in the universe.

Electrons are also constantly moving back and forth between low and higher electron levels, as they gain and lose energy. Are you saying you can tell that at
0.00000000000000001 seconds the hydrogen e- is in the s orbital
0.00000000000000002 seconds the hydrogen e- is in the p orbital
0.00000000000000003 back to the s orbital
0.00000000000000004 back to the p orbital
0.00000000000000005 Hydrogen is now bonded with OH to make water, so now its electron is in the bonding orbital with the O and H.
0.00000000000000006 back to s orbital

And you know this for each of the billion electrons in a kidney?

And how dare you simplify the complexity of electron distribution into the statement, "we all know that electrons are a teeny tiny distance from the nucleus". The exact pattern of electron distribution is very telling, and I am sad that you neglect that

Scientists can study the electron distribution of atoms. But they use equipment that is able to interact with electrons. Forget about what scientists with special equipment can do, and tell me what you can do.

Electrons are a teeny tiny distance from the nucleus. Can you prove to me that you can sense anything different, or that you can sense electrons at all? Without special equipment, we would never even know electrons existed, and we didn’t know for thousands of years.

A scalar field is very special. Knowing a scalar field lets you understand how a quantity is distributed across space, and that is vital for understanding how it will interact with other things.
What kind of scientist are you? You never appreciated math, did you? Gradients are very important. They are even used heavily in Physics, but then, you are not a Physicist.

Scalars and gradients are mathematical concepts. I have taken a advanced linear algebra, and physics and engineering mathematics class that used them a lot. Forget what scalars and gradients can do for solving math problems, and tell me how they explain what you perceive, that cannot be explained some other way. i.e. “I see shapes”

I experience that what is vibrating is the substance that atoms are made of.

What is this “substance that atoms are made of”? How do you know that is what you feel vibrating and not something else?

And therefore, in larger structures composed of this, the atoms, molecules, bacteria, and whole organs have vibrational patterns based on the substance they are made of, that is vibrating.

What are these vibrational patterns? If you sense vibrations, You must know the frequency they are vibrating at? 10Hz, 100000000Hz, 0.0000001 Hz? give me a guess.

If I am in a shaky bridge, I can tell you it is swaying 2 vibrations per minute. Or 0.03 vibration/sec

If I am in an earthquake, I can guess the earth was vibrating at 1 vibration/second

Can you tell me the approximate frequency of the vibrations you are sensing?

X-ray crystallography

You mention x-ray crystallography. Don’t tell me what can be done with specialized equipment, tell me what you can do yourself.

If you think I don’t have a grasp of these concepts, print out my posts and your posts, and have anyone at your college, a professor, a graduate student, look at them and ask which posts demonstrate more understanding of these topics. That is an easy way to settle it.

 

[Ness36]

One of my friends who has a Chemical Engineering degree (all the same classes as a chemist + extra engineering classes) and almost done with a Masters degree in Mechanical Engineering sent me an email discussing the science behind Vision From Feeling's claims after he read these posts.

He was kind enough to agree to let me post his thoughts. These are off-the-cuff, so please make allowances for that.

Here is his email:

"Some points:

-What kind of chemist one is that has no bearing on the physical truth?

-A ethane molecule is about 0.3 nm across, a protein is 5nm, and eukaryotic cell is 50,00 nm, and kidney is 120,000,000 nm across. If she sees molecules via their wavefunctions (almost nobody in the world can image a wave function by the way), she is processing half a billion or more data points on the kidney scale, or say she knows what a kidney cell looks like, then 150,000.

-To see an electron, you need a particle to carry the information from it to a detector. There is nothing she can make to do this, nor detect it. Alternatively, she could detect the electric field from a single electron, which at a distance of one meter would exert a force of 2.3E-28 N on a detector electron, the gravitational attraction her brain feels from a kidney is 15 orders of magnitude higher than that.

-The spatial resolution required to image a single wave function is about 0.1nm. The wavelength of radiation required to detect with that resolution is say 0.05nm which corresponds to very energetic X-rays, about what they use for teeth xrays. If this is her mechanism, all her DNA would be destroyed by now from walking around in radiation all day.

I am not wasting any more brain power on this. I did all that cursorily, so check it before you post anything she can “catch” you on.

PS: Oh, also, if you could see wavefunctions, let alone diagnose diseases, forget college, prove it and you will make 8 figures working anywhere you choose.

Therein lies the conundrum of the skeptic: your allies already agree with you, and your enemies are beyond the grasp of reason. "

 

[Cuddles]

Are you telling me you can see a kidney from the ground up? You can see each billions of electrons, atoms, molecules, that make up a kidney?

Yes, this is exactly what she claims. She also claims that as well as being able to see every single particle, she can zoom her view in and out and rotate it to see from any angle. Once you realise just how much she claims to be able to see, it's easy to understand why people are so critical of her. Nothing she says makes any sense at all in light of what she actually says she can do.

This is why most people are not willing to give her any benefit of the doubt in the thread about her upcoming test. If she was just another regular claimant who thinks they can diagnose a few things by magic, that would be fine. But she claims so much more than that. Given that she can see anything in a person down to the atomic level, can identify elements, can assess the biological effects a molecule she sees will have, and so on, the test she is actually taking is a complete waste of time.

 

[Agatha]

Good question. I was awake, but more relaxed than usually. What indicates to me that it was not an experience that took place in my mind alone, was that the cramp from my intestine was a very real physical experience. And I have every reason to believe that the cramp was real and not imaginary, especially since I had eaten so much raw food without drinking and that will cause it, and because it was quite obvious and real. If you are all next going to sincerely suggest that my physical sensations of my body are also all imaginary and false memories, then I will leave this JREF Forum and not return, because it won't be worth it. Then you might as well tell me that I do not exist at all, and that I myself am an illusion and no one is even typing these keys. So, don't go overboard with these allegations, I think I know when something happens. And I did detect the missing kidney in Dr. Carlson. It wasn't a false memory, sorry.

I'm not making "allegations", I'm trying to establish what you have done to rule out mundane (non-paranormal, non-synaesthesia) explanations of your claimed experiences.

Nor am I likely to suggest that you are not real, or that your physical feelings are not real. I wasn't talking about your stomach cramp, just the mental image that you felt you perceived. What is in discussion here is not the physical sensations we all experience, but the mental perceptions that you (alone) claim to have.

I think it would be helpful to everybody, you included, if you concentrate on the questions actually being posed to you, rather than making accusations of "allegations" which have not been made.

So, what steps have you taken to rule out a hypnopompic hallucination in this instance? I am sure you understand that a hallucination of this nature will feel absolutely real. People who experience hypnopompic and hypnagogic hallucinations will be utterly convinced that what they see, hear and feel during the experience is real. You being convinced that the perception is real is not evidence that it is.

As far I as I can see, you haven't taken any steps at all to rule out mundane explanations for your claimed perceptions. You have leapt straight to "I can't explain it, so it must be paranormal" .

By the way, I must thank Ness36 for his/her posts on this and associated threads,

 

[desertgal]

<snip>Are you telling me you can see a kidney from the ground up? You can see each billions of electrons, atoms, molecules, that make up a kidney? <snipped for relevancy>

Everything but kidney stones (bolding mine):

As for the health problem I was supposed to detect in the man, it was kidney stones. As far as I know, he was not experiencing any current symptoms, and a miniscule kidney stone that is not causing current problems is, well, hard to detect, even if someone were able to see inside the body. They're rather small. And my claim is not to detect miniscule kidney stones when they are not causing any pain. I only claim to do, what I have been able to do in the past.

This is another example of why people are not willing to give VfF the benefit of the doubt. Her story changes from day to day, and, usually, when asked to clarify the discrepancies, she disregards the question or hides behind inaccurate scientific babble speak. This type of dodging is probably true of many paranormal claimants, but it certainly doesn't help her case.

This is, after all, a woman who has, literally, convinced herself that she is a space alien so that she doesn't have to concede that she is as fallible as mere mortals from planet Earth. She is, by her own account, the most extraordinary being in the history of mankind.

 

[Sideroxylon]

By using a narrative based on existing scientific knowledge to explain her super powers she has taken the hard road. With something like divine inspiration or chi she could pretty much say anything she liked without being called to account for her misconceptions and inconstancies.

But as I think someone else said here, this kind of farting around is a bit like dreaming of how to spend your lotto winnings before you’ve actually won. She has yet to demonstrate in repeatable rigorous tests that she actually has such extraordinary powers.

I keep coming back for the mental gymnastics and to learn from the posts of others.

 

[Kariboo]

What indicates to me that it was not an experience that took place in my mind alone, was that the cramp from my intestine was a very real physical experience.

The cramp may have been real, the resulting imagery that you describe is the issue here. 1) It can be a hallucination 2) It can be imaginary 3) There is no way to check if there is a basis in reality for it.

I can accept that you saw an intestine floating around, I have no reason to believe that that image is a depiction of reality and not a hallucination. People see stuff, that does not mean it is real.