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Split Thread Virginia Guiffre v Duke of York

and at least in New York and London she was above age of consent

This reminds me of that scene in a recent Transformers movie where one of the characters just happens to have a laminated printout out the relevant Romeo and Juliet laws in his wallet, because somehow the matter of his underage girlfriend is an important part of the script and his character.

My view is that the moment you start excusing dating a minor as technically legal, you've already gone too far off the rails to deserve the benefit of my doubt.


ETA: "I know it looks bad but let me explain," isn't really a position an ethical partner should end up in. And for what? Was this Andrew's true love, towards whom he always acted with circumspection and diligent restraint? Was he encouraging her parents as chaperones while she matured? Was he taking care to avoid even the appearance of grooming or exploitation?

No!

He was accepting a young woman as a sexual favor from a known pimp with a reputation of sourcing children for sex. "Don't worry, Your Highness. You're legally in the clear on this one. Enjoy!"

This isn't a man whose reputation needs rehabilitating.
 
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As part of minimising the damages that Windsor will be liable for I think the strategy is to say that she was abused from an early age within her family, that she was the 'girl friend' of a professional sex trafficker when she was fourteen. That the trauma and psychological harm she had suffered had already occurred by the time the alleged sexual interactions occurred. To put it crudely when Windsor met her she was already damaged goods and he caused no additional damage.

I think the strategy of 'By the time I met her she was so messed up it didn't matter what I did to her' has the possibility of backfiring quite spectacularly.

It certainly doesn't make Andrew's actions look any better to me anyway.
 
I think there are two issues.

The first is did some sort of (criminal) sexual act occur. The second did it result in harm. Both are required for compensation to be awarded.

The significance of Andriano's testimony is that Giuffre boasted about having sex with a Prince, and far from appearing hurt or upset by the encounter she was pleased with herself for having done so. This would also imply she was not an unwilling* partner in the interaction.

It is entirely legitimate for the defence to run a two track argument; 1) I never had sex with that woman Giuffre, 2) Even if the court rules I did she suffered no significant harm so any damages should be minimal.

As part of minimising the damages that Windsor will be liable for I think the strategy is to say that she was abused from an early age within her family, that she was the 'girl friend' of a professional sex trafficker when she was fourteen. That the trauma and psychological harm she had suffered had already occurred by the time the alleged sexual interactions occurred. To put it crudely when Windsor met her she was already damaged goods and he caused no additional damage.
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I don't understand these contorted defenses of a predator. Her claim is that she was assaulted and abused. For that purpose, her age doesn't matter. Where it does matter is that her youth made her vulnerable to manipulation and intimidation. She may well have consented to sex, in the sense that she didn't forcefully resist, because she saw no alternative. It was something she was groomed to expect. As an adult she has come to understand her victimization and its lifetime impact.

And arguing that a 17-year-old girl is so damaged that anybody can do anything they want to her is not likely to go over well with an American jury.
 
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After reading about this I get the impression that Andrew could've avoided this whole situation if he had simply payed her off long ago. If some of the statements Giuffre made to a friend after she was "sexually exploited" are genuine it seems unlikely she suffered any significant emotional damage from this episode and quite possibly enjoyed her stay in the UK. If so she might have even been amenable to visit the UK again.
 
I think the strategy of 'By the time I met her she was so messed up it didn't matter what I did to her' has the possibility of backfiring quite spectacularly.

It certainly doesn't make Andrew's actions look any better to me anyway.

I don't think that is the way it will be put! This would imply Windsor knew something of her background. I hate to disillusion you, but guys do not take a detailed psychological and social history from casual pick ups at a club which are likely to be one night stands.

If the scenario is as reported she was told to "Do to him what you do to Epstein", she would be coming on to him at Tramps (a club), due diligence by him would be checking she was over the age of consent (in the UK). We are talking about the twenty first century, with sexually empowered women, there is no expectation that a man you meet at a club will marry you if he has sex with you (Four Weddings and a Funeral is not what real life in London was like!).

The sex has to be criminal for the case to go forward. It may be sufficient to claim it was criminal because she was subject to trafficking. It may not be necessary to show Windsor committed a crime. Indeed in a somewhat similar instance in the Maxwell trial the judge ruled that sex with a seventeen year old in London was not illicit because she was above the age of consent in London. What I do not know is whether in New York having sex with someone over the age of consent who expressed a desire to have sex with you would be a crime because someone else paid them to have sex with you and trafficked them for the purpose of having sex. Clearly the trafficker is guilty of a crime but is the 'unwitting' sex partner also guilty?

In the UK, there is a separation between proving liability and apportioning damages assuming something similar in the US. The argument that Giuffre had suffered harm prior to meeting Windsor will only happen once he has been found liable for damages and the question become not what you are but how much you charge.

Giuffre is the one who has to claim that sex with Andrew caused her harm. She is the one who will have describe the harm she suffered from him, she is the one who will need to put a monetary cost on the harm.

The defence will be nice and sympathetic, 'Mrs Giuffre suffered a terrible life, sexually abused from age seven by multiple men, this abuse from young childhood has left deep scars. We all sympathise and feel for her. But the jury are asked to do a difficult task, they have to apportion harm. How much harm was done by ten years of abuse prior to Mrs. Giuffre meeting our client, how much by the continued sexual exploitation for the next three years after meeting our client? How much by the episode when our client met Mrs. Giuffre? This is a difficult and heart rending choice members of the jury but justice calls for you to attribute to our client only the harm caused by our clients actions. However sympathetic we feel for the terrible suffering she suffered as a child it is not the responsibility of our client to compensate for harm caused by others. Indeed Mrs. Giuffre has been compensated for the harm she suffered over so many years at the hands of Epstein, and Maxwell. Epstein and Maxwell those evil people who were convicted have rightly compensated Mrs Giuffre for their actions.

We all admire how she has married and had a long and happy marriage with a beautiful family and a beautiful $millions house. It was only right that Epstein and Maxwell compensated her for the harm done by them to her. It was evil and a tragedy how having moved on from being the girl friend of one convicted sex trafficker she fell into working for another. How she was so corrupted that she went out and brought back young teenagers for Epstein and took money for doing so. How she was sent out to seduce people of power and influence and was paid for doing so. She was corrupted by those evil people into participating in their evil acts. We have heard how she boasted of how she succeeded in having sex with a Prince, having be sent out to seduce him. So members of the jury you have to be clear minded and analytic you must judge how much harm did Mrs. Giuffre suffer when she was sent out to seduce our client?
 
I don't understand these contorted defenses of a predator. Her claim is that she was assaulted and abused. For that purpose, her age doesn't matter. Where it does matter is that her youth made her vulnerable to manipulation and intimidation. She may well have consented to sex, in the sense that she didn't forcefully resist, because she saw no alternative. It was something she was groomed to expect. As an adult she has come to understand her victimization and its lifetime impact.

And arguing that a 17-year-old girl is so damaged that anybody can do anything they want to her is not likely to go over well with an American jury.

I have seen no allegation that she was assaulted and abused by Windsor. (That i have not seen such a claim does not mean it is not out there nor am I denying it might have happened.) The only claim I have seen was that she was told by Maxwell to have sex with him, then boasted of doing so to a friend later. I entirely accept that she was in an abusive situation where she was manipulated into having sex with Windsor. However, that is very different from claiming that he forced her into sex or physically abused her.

This thread is on trials, I am trying to discuss the tactics of the trial. There is a separation between morality and legality, between what actually happens and how it is played out in court. If one is discussing what the defence tactics might be this no more implies I am defending sexual exploitation than the lawyer defending a paedophile is himself or herself a paedophile. The main principle of this site is to discuss the argument, not the arguer. Even evil people deserve a fair trial. They may not be guilty of the actual thing they are accused of.

FWIW I think the Windsor is a bad egg, greedy, exploitative, stupid and makes bad choices. I suspect he did have sex with Giuffre and probably other young women in other places provided by evil rich men with whom he associated who also thought it was hospitable to provide young women for the sexual gratification of their guests. But all that is irrelevant to the actual process of the trial and the three occasions when it was alleged Windsor and Giuffre had sexual relations. Certainly her comments at the time do not imply there was physical coercion by Windsor. I entirely accept there was psychological coercion by Epstein and Maxwell. I do not know how much blame can be put on Windsor for the actions of Epstein. Whether I think Windsor had sex with Giuffre is to some extent irrelevant if we are discussing the court case. This is something that needs to be established in court.

The argument that might be made is that Windsor should have known that Epstein was sexually exploiting and trafficking these young women. That if he had known then he was part of a criminal conspiracy. I haven't seen this argument made, but it would be a powerful one. It is certainly one that I am sympathetic with. You would have to be pretty stupid not to think there was something a bit dubious about all these young women into older men. On the other hand I think Windsor genuinely believed that the young women hanging around the evil rich men he associated with wanted to have sex with him because he was a Prince. That they were just party girls out for fun. He is pretty stupid.
 
I don't think that is the way it will be put! This would imply Windsor knew something of her background. I hate to disillusion you, but guys do not take a detailed psychological and social history from casual pick ups at a club which are likely to be one night stands.

If the scenario is as reported she was told to "Do to him what you do to Epstein", she would be coming on to him at Tramps (a club), due diligence by him would be checking she was over the age of consent (in the UK). We are talking about the twenty first century, with sexually empowered women, there is no expectation that a man you meet at a club will marry you if he has sex with you (Four Weddings and a Funeral is not what real life in London was like!).

The sex has to be criminal for the case to go forward. It may be sufficient to claim it was criminal because she was subject to trafficking. It may not be necessary to show Windsor committed a crime. Indeed in a somewhat similar instance in the Maxwell trial the judge ruled that sex with a seventeen year old in London was not illicit because she was above the age of consent in London. What I do not know is whether in New York having sex with someone over the age of consent who expressed a desire to have sex with you would be a crime because someone else paid them to have sex with you and trafficked them for the purpose of having sex. Clearly the trafficker is guilty of a crime but is the 'unwitting' sex partner also guilty?

In the UK, there is a separation between proving liability and apportioning damages assuming something similar in the US. The argument that Giuffre had suffered harm prior to meeting Windsor will only happen once he has been found liable for damages and the question become not what you are but how much you charge.

Giuffre is the one who has to claim that sex with Andrew caused her harm. She is the one who will have describe the harm she suffered from him, she is the one who will need to put a monetary cost on the harm.

The defence will be nice and sympathetic, 'Mrs Giuffre suffered a terrible life, sexually abused from age seven by multiple men, this abuse from young childhood has left deep scars. We all sympathise and feel for her. But the jury are asked to do a difficult task, they have to apportion harm. How much harm was done by ten years of abuse prior to Mrs. Giuffre meeting our client, how much by the continued sexual exploitation for the next three years after meeting our client? How much by the episode when our client met Mrs. Giuffre? This is a difficult and heart rending choice members of the jury but justice calls for you to attribute to our client only the harm caused by our clients actions. However sympathetic we feel for the terrible suffering she suffered as a child it is not the responsibility of our client to compensate for harm caused by others. Indeed Mrs. Giuffre has been compensated for the harm she suffered over so many years at the hands of Epstein, and Maxwell. Epstein and Maxwell those evil people who were convicted have rightly compensated Mrs Giuffre for their actions.

We all admire how she has married and had a long and happy marriage with a beautiful family and a beautiful $millions house. It was only right that Epstein and Maxwell compensated her for the harm done by them to her. It was evil and a tragedy how having moved on from being the girl friend of one convicted sex trafficker she fell into working for another. How she was so corrupted that she went out and brought back young teenagers for Epstein and took money for doing so. How she was sent out to seduce people of power and influence and was paid for doing so. She was corrupted by those evil people into participating in their evil acts. We have heard how she boasted of how she succeeded in having sex with a Prince, having be sent out to seduce him. So members of the jury you have to be clear minded and analytic you must judge how much harm did Mrs. Giuffre suffer when she was sent out to seduce our client?
I wish I had said (all) that.
 
I have seen no allegation that she was assaulted and abused by Windsor. (That i have not seen such a claim does not mean it is not out there nor am I denying it might have happened.)
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What? The premise of her case is that she was assaulted by Andrew. That's the reason for her suit. What do you think she's suing for?
Virginia Giuffre, an alleged victim of Jeffrey Epstein, has filed a lawsuit against Prince Andrew for alleged sexual assault when she was 17, as Associated Press reports.

The suit, filed in Manhattan federal court on Monday, accuses the prince of sexually abusing Giuffre multiple times while she was a minor. Giuffre allegedly received “express or implied threats” by Epstein, Epstein’s girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell, and/or Andrew to perform sexual acts with the prince, according to the lawsuit. Giuffre’s suit seeks unspecified compensatory and punitive damages.
https://www.rollingstone.com/cultur...uit-virginia-giuffre-jeffrey-epstein-1210054/

"Ms. Giuffre's complaint is neither 'unintelligible' nor 'vague' nor 'ambiguous,'" Judge Lewis Kaplan wrote in the ruling. "It alleges discrete incidents of sexual abuse in particular circumstances at three identifiable locations. It identifies to whom it attributes that sexual abuse."

Giuffre alleged in the lawsuit that the late financier Jeffrey Epstein trafficked her and forced her to have sex with his friends, including the Prince, and that Andrew was aware she was underage (17) in the US at the time. She alleges the Prince sexually abused her at Epstein's private island in the US Virgin Islands, at his mansion in Manhattan and at his former girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell's home in London.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/12/us/prince-andrew-virginia-giuffre/index.html
 
What? The premise of her case is that she was assaulted by Andrew. That's the reason for her suit. What do you think she's suing for?

https://www.rollingstone.com/cultur...uit-virginia-giuffre-jeffrey-epstein-1210054/

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/12/us/prince-andrew-virginia-giuffre/index.html

My uncertainty relates to

Giuffre allegedly received “express or implied threats” by Epstein, Epstein’s girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell, and/or Andrew to perform sexual acts with the prince, according to the lawsuit.

If Epstein / Maxwell made express or implied threats to make Giuffre have sex with Windsor, but as far as Windsor was aware she was having sex with him willingly and was (at least in NY and London) over the age of consent was Windsor assaulting her? Clearly Maxwell / Epstein were sexually abusing her (all be it at second hand in this case), but was Windsor? Since this is not a criminal trial this question will not be answered. What I have not seen is a description or claim that Windsor was a first person abuser, that he physically forced her or threatened her himself to make her have some form of sexual relations with him. Notably she is not accusing him of rape. Since she claims to have had sex with him, but does not say she was raped, I am unclear about exactly what she means.

My understanding was that Maxwell / Giuffre created an environment in which young women were coerced / paid to have sex with Epstein's guest / associates / friends. I can understand the argument that in this environment the young women were not able to give genuinely free consent to sex. What I am unclear about is when the young women were told to service the needs of Epstein's guests in the same way as they did for Epstein were the guests themselves committing an offence (leaving aside age of consent issues)? Is a mens rea needed?

I above stated that I wondered if the argument would be made that Windsor and other guests were aware or should have been aware that the young women attending to their 'needs' were trafficked and / or in other ways coerced into sexual relationships with Epstein's guests. That they were in fact part of the conspiracy. This then requires no physical or verbal action by Windsor to force Giuffre into a sexual act, merely awareness that implied or expressed threats had been made by others, forcing her to do so. It does not even require Windsor to have initiated the act, if she pulled down his pants and gave him a bj whilst he panted out 'Are sure you really want to do this' whilst knowing that she had been told to do so then he would be party to the crime. In the same situation if he had no knowledge that Giuffre was forced into the act would he be an abuser? I haven't seen this argument made (which does not mean it has not been made), but I find it quite believable. I think this will come under the phrase 'plausible deniability'.
 
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I above stated that I wondered if the argument would be made that Windsor and other guests were aware or should have been aware that the young women attending to their 'needs' were trafficked and / or in other ways coerced into sexual relationships with Epstein's guests.
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Some crimes carry "strict liability:" that is, if you did the act, it doesn't matter what you were thinking. Statutory rape is one of them. It could well be that Giuffre's lawyers will argue that Andrew "knew or should have known" that a teenage girl making herself available to him wasn't acting freely, even if she was slightly over the age of consent.
 
My understanding was that Maxwell / Giuffre created an environment in which young women were coerced / paid to have sex with Epstein's guest / associates / friends. I can understand the argument that in this environment the young women were not able to give genuinely free consent to sex. What I am unclear about is when the young women were told to service the needs of Epstein's guests in the same way as they did for Epstein were the guests themselves committing an offence (leaving aside age of consent issues)? Is a mens rea needed?

If you're a teenager (hell even an adult) who's been flown to a billionaire's island and have no way off other than transport at his gift, you're going to be feeling pretty isolated, especially if things like mobile phones are removed, or his goons drag in some seeming lawyers to get you to sign things that you're not going to tell.

They mightn't have any legal weight but it would be intimidating - especially if you're vulnerable.
 
One benefit of grooming the young and naive is that when it works, the victim may well enthusiastically participate in their own exploitation. It isn't even necessarily restricted to outright grooming, either. People without a lot of life experience can internalize entirely the wrong social norms, if their first workplace happens to be toxic.

We should not assume that an enthusiastic 17 year-old sex worker is an independent, empowered woman making an informed and mature choice to freely engage in sex work for her own purposes. In Giuffre's case, that assumption goes against everything we know about Epstein, his proclivities, and the services he offered to his "friends".

Producing enthusiastic call girls who are technically of age is the acme of the groomer's art. Not least because it gives a thin veneer of plausible deniability. That doesn't mean we have to play along with their shenanigans. As Andrew did, and is still doing.
 
One benefit of grooming the young and naive is that when it works, the victim may well enthusiastically participate in their own exploitation. It isn't even necessarily restricted to outright grooming, either. People without a lot of life experience can internalize entirely the wrong social norms, if their first workplace happens to be toxic.

We should not assume that an enthusiastic 17 year-old sex worker is an independent, empowered woman making an informed and mature choice to freely engage in sex work for her own purposes. In Giuffre's case, that assumption goes against everything we know about Epstein, his proclivities, and the services he offered to his "friends".

Producing enthusiastic call girls who are technically of age is the acme of the groomer's art. Not least because it gives a thin veneer of plausible deniability. That doesn't mean we have to play along with their shenanigans. As Andrew did, and is still doing.

Exactly
 
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In Giuffre's case, that assumption goes against everything we know about Epstein, his proclivities, and the services he offered to his "friends".
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It also goes against everything we know about predators and their victims. No one can claim she stood as an equal to Epstein, Maxwell and Andrew.
 
It also goes against everything we know about predators and their victims. No one can claim she stood as an equal to Epstein, Maxwell and Andrew.

It also kinda goes against what I've slowly been learning about young women and sex work in general. It goes back to what I said about Andrew earlier: If you have to reassure yourself that your sex partner is technically of age, you're already wrong, regardless of anything else.
 
Some crimes carry "strict liability:" that is, if you did the act, it doesn't matter what you were thinking. Statutory rape is one of them. It could well be that Giuffre's lawyers will argue that Andrew "knew or should have known" that a teenage girl making herself available to him wasn't acting freely, even if she was slightly over the age of consent.

Yes, I appreciate some crimes have strict liability and these differ across jurisdictions that is why I said I don't know whether this would count as a crime. I certainly think the 'knew or should have known' argument is good one.
 
Of course had she been just an 18 year old gold digging "escort" she'd get no sympathy for being unable to refuse out of fear of losing her privileges and money, let alone any form of legal recourse.
 
One benefit of grooming the young and naive is that when it works, the victim may well enthusiastically participate in their own exploitation. It isn't even necessarily restricted to outright grooming, either. People without a lot of life experience can internalize entirely the wrong social norms, if their first workplace happens to be toxic.

We should not assume that an enthusiastic 17 year-old sex worker is an independent, empowered woman making an informed and mature choice to freely engage in sex work for her own purposes. In Giuffre's case, that assumption goes against everything we know about Epstein, his proclivities, and the services he offered to his "friends".

Producing enthusiastic call girls who are technically of age is the acme of the groomer's art. Not least because it gives a thin veneer of plausible deniability. That doesn't mean we have to play along with their shenanigans. As Andrew did, and is still doing.

Entirely agree.
 

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