Vietnam and Iraq

[Kodiak]

A small square, strongly guarded by marines, a few hundreds Iraqis, and the USA army doing the task of breaking the symbols.

That is a single example. Scores of statues, murals, and paintings of Saddam and other Baath party leaders across the country were destroyed in various celebrations.

 

[Tmy]

I have stories that counter your stories.

People driving away from gas pumps without paying in the US is currently widespread. Does that mean the average American is stealing gas?

I'm sure polls would show that a large percentage of Americans are unhappy about taxes. Does that mean the average American is going to "cause problems"?

C'mon, Tmy...

Traditionally people tend to get a little more upset over foreign army occupation vs. twenty cent increases in the price of gas.

 

[Jocko]

Traditionally people tend to get a little more upset over foreign army occupation vs. twenty cent increases in the price of gas.

Talk about bullflop....

Christ, Timmy, people in your lovely little burg pull out the RPGs when the Yankees win at Fenway.

 

[Ziggurat]

To tell the truth, the famous images of the USA tank breaking saddam's statue, while a crowd of Iraqis cheers, looked carefully prepared propaganda to me. A small square, strongly guarded by marines, a few hundreds Iraqis, and the USA army doing the task of breaking the symbols.
It didn't look like all the population was in the streets celebrating the liberation, and I am not sure a majority of Iraqis felt that way.

I watched an interview from Iraq with the army guys who actually did this. It was not staged in the way you suggest. In fact, the army people didn't really even expect to be there without serious fighting. So unless you want to accuse that whole unit of lying, your suspicions about the nature of the event aren't true. Yes, the number of people in the square was small. Big surprise when people don't know what's happening and are afraid of possibly getting caught in the crossfire of what could have been very nasty urban combat, so most people were keeping low. But the joy of those Iraqis was quite genuine, and one of the biggest factors holding it back from being more visible was people not knowing for sure if this would all stick, that Saddam really was gone for good (because you can bet that the Iraqis caught on TV beating Saddam's statue with their shoes would be in for it if Saddam ever came back to power).

Remenbering the recent story of my country, I suspect there is probably an very big part of the population which formed part of Saddam's system, and now both followers and opositors look to each other with fear and suspicion, waitting the next step to react.

Depends what you mean by "big". 4% of the population of Iraq (random example) is big in the sense that it's a million people, but it's small compared to the other 96%. I'm not sure what percent actually supported Saddam, but it was a lot smaller than the number who either hated him (which WAS a majority of Iraq) or were basically neutral. A lot of people who "supported" the regime in the sense of working for it (ie, probably the majority of government workers) likely did so because that made their own lives easier under Saddam, but felt no loyalty towards him. But you are correct about general suspicion, that's something that doesn't disappear overnight.

You can't "liberate" a country which is not prepared for it, without a good dose of terrorism (or even guerrilla) afterwards.

I'm not sure what you mean by a country being "prepared". But the existence of terrorists and geurilla insurgents doesn't mean the job can't be done.

 

[Tmy]

Talk about bullflop....

Christ, Timmy, people in your lovely little burg pull out the RPGs when the Yankees win at Fenway.

Exactly! Yankees defiling sacred grounds has always driven people to madness.

 

[a_unique_person]

Your first comment is a simple strawman.

Secondly, I have at least twenty friends, colleagues, and family in Iraq right now. They've ALL remarked on the initial celebration after Saddam's overthrow, the constant thanks, praise, support, and gift-giving made by many citizens from many different parts of Iraq, and the renewed rejoicing when Saddams sons were killed and when Saddam himself was finally captured.

Thirdly, I also included Iraqi militant fundmentalists. What evidence do you possess that leads you to consider both media and Pentagon reports to be "tripe" and "bullflop"?

Is it your contention that it is the average Iraqi "John and Jane Q. Public" firing machine guns and RPG's at coalition forces?

I don't doubt they were glad Saddam is gone. However, that doesn't look like the case now. The pictures of prisoners being sadistically tortured indicate that for many US troops, the people of Iraq are not worth any respect. The US military leaders have, thankfully, shown their disapproval for this now, but these tapes have been kicking around for months. One guy had the guts to say this is wrong, among many who ignored the problem. You can bet many of his fellow troopers will see him as a traitor.

There are numerous examples of troops firing blindly when they are unsure of a situation. This right from the start with people being shot at when they approached roadblocks in a way that didn't meet some rules that were not clearly displayed.

I hardly think that everyone will be taking up guns against the US, but they don't need to. It won't take much to ensure that whatever governance structure is put in place, it's not going to work.

 

[a_unique_person]

What polls?



Interesting. You assume all 40% want to take up arms against us. Does that mean everybody who is pissed off at Bush in America is ready to take up arms, too? Or are Iraqis a different species?



You think millions of people will need to be killed in Iraq for the U.S. to accomplish its goals there?

There was a poll published in CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/29/iraq.poll/index.html

They are saying thanks for getting rid of Saddam, but you can leave now.

Falujah is a good example. When in doubt, bring out a C-130.

 

[Peskanov]

Ziggurat,

So unless you want to accuse that whole unit of lying, your suspicions about the nature of the event aren't true.

You are missunderstanding me. I am not saying those few Iraqis were carried there at gunpoint.
The images came to or TV's with the message of Iraqis massively celebrating Saddam's demise. This is propaganda, the message did not correspond with the images at all (and I don't have acces to the facts). I have seen images of national liberation celebrations, and the few images that came from Iraq pale at comparison.
Ah, and of course I doubt of the correction of any information coming from warzones. Heck, I suspect of nearly all information I see on the media. I use to compare news from different sources and they rarely match.

But the joy of those Iraqis was quite genuine, and one of the biggest factors holding it back from being more visible was people not knowing for sure if this would all stick, that Saddam really was gone for good

You say "Saddam could be back". I just say "the people of Saddam's regime could be back", no matter which flavour of regime. And for every Iraqi feeling joy, maybe there is another feeling fear for his old support to Saddam.

Depends what you mean by "big". 4% of the population of Iraq (random example) is big in the sense that it's a million people, but it's small compared to the other 96%. I'm not sure what percent actually supported Saddam, but it was a lot smaller than the number who either hated him (which WAS a majority of Iraq) or were basically neutral. A lot of people who "supported" the regime in the sense of working for it (ie, probably the majority of government workers) likely did so because that made their own lives easier under Saddam, but felt no loyalty towards him. But you are correct about general suspicion, that's something that doesn't disappear overnight.

I mean supported in the sense of working for him (bureaucracy, education, political party militance, etc...) or simply advocating his dictatorship in public.
As I said I am extrapolating from the old situation in my country, Spain. In Franco's time a really big part of the country was vocal on his support of the dictatorship. The common reasons were ambition or fear, but also there was huge popular support; most people viewed him as a father or protector; they thinked he bring unification, peace, and even economic prosperity.
However, when democracy came, the party who carried Franco's torch (FN) did got very few votes! His old supporters just voted moderated right.

I'm not sure what you mean by a country being "prepared". But the existence of terrorists and geurilla insurgents doesn't mean the job can't be done.

I am talking about long term dictatorships, with a big support infrastructure already built in the society.
Imho for a pacific transition, you need to have a good balance between old regime elements and reformist. If this is not the case, the old guard feels menaced and the guns start talking.
An exception could be Portugal, for example. However I can't think of any good example of long term dictatorships removed by country invasion; Germany maybe, but a lot of the population died in the process.
Of course, some people don't give a d*mn about pacific transitions.

 

[demon]

Typical Ziggurat bollocks:
"I watched an interview from Iraq with the army guys who actually did this. It was not staged in the way you suggest. In fact, the army people didn't really even expect to be there without serious fighting. So unless you want to accuse that whole unit of lying, your suspicions about the nature of the event aren't true. Yes, the number of people in the square was small. Big surprise when people don't know what's happening and are afraid of possibly getting caught in the crossfire of what could have been very nasty urban combat, so most people were keeping low. But the joy of those Iraqis was quite genuine, and one of the biggest factors holding it back from being more visible was people not knowing for sure if this would all stick, that Saddam really was gone for good (because you can bet that the Iraqis caught on TV beating Saddam's statue with their shoes would be in for it if Saddam ever came back to power)."


http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Toppling_the_statue_of_Saddam_Hussein

 

[peptoabysmal]

Yes, it's pretty hard for the Iraqis to think clearly when al-Jazeera is streaming videos of the attack on Falluja with a sound track of a cleric yelling "They're killing babies!" to the TV's that they can now afford to own. Especially when you know that the average age / sex in Iraq is 18 / male by quite a margin. I thought pretty clearly when I was 18, how about you?

Kofi Annan would like nothing better than for us to pull out of Iraq, so the UN can resume skimming profits off of the oil for food program. Never mind that the Iraqis hate us only slightly more than they hate each other and there will be a bloody civil war if we leave them with no established government.

You folks miss Saddam yet? Want him back in power? I know Hamas would prefer that, since Saddam was a major source of funding for their cause.

Don't forget that al-Queda recently tried to pull off a big attack in Syria. ---- Syria!!!! At least these guys don't discriminate...

 

[rikzilla]

Typical Ziggurat bollocks:
"I watched an interview from Iraq with the army guys who actually did this. It was not staged in the way you suggest. In fact, the army people didn't really even expect to be there without serious fighting. So unless you want to accuse that whole unit of lying, your suspicions about the nature of the event aren't true. Yes, the number of people in the square was small. Big surprise when people don't know what's happening and are afraid of possibly getting caught in the crossfire of what could have been very nasty urban combat, so most people were keeping low. But the joy of those Iraqis was quite genuine, and one of the biggest factors holding it back from being more visible was people not knowing for sure if this would all stick, that Saddam really was gone for good (because you can bet that the Iraqis caught on TV beating Saddam's statue with their shoes would be in for it if Saddam ever came back to power)."


http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Toppling_the_statue_of_Saddam_Hussein

Another conspiracy theory?

The whinging Demon:

 

[charley_bigtime]

Another conspiracy theory?

The whinging Demon:

You're right - there's no conspiracy theory there whatsoever.

Just plain and simple propaganda.