Veterinary homoeopathy illegal?

I still like this bit as well;

"she needed to be given ... an antidiuretic injection immediately."

There are typos and then there are errors that are revealing of the underlying disordered thinking. Which was this quote?
 
I've said it before and I say it again: In Sweden, homeopaths are officially, by the authorities, regarded as quacks, and are by law prohibited to treat cancer patients and children. If the do they will be sentenced in court to pay a fine or go to jail.

However, it’s not against the law to practise homeopathy on animals. BUT, the head of the national vet association, says that Swedish vets do NOT practice homeopathy (Sorry but the quotes are all in Swedish). Also, about 50% of Swedish vets have come in contact with cases where animals have suffered because of homeopathic treatment.

But I guess that Sarah-I won’t be impressed by this? Sarah?
 
Anders,

It really does not make any difference to me what happens in Sweden at all. I am not interested and have no plans to go there in the near future either.

Homeopaths in England however do treat children all the time and they respond extremely well to remedies and sometimes better than adults.

The only animals I treat are my own dogs when needed and they always respond to remedies very well and have never suffered uncessarily.
 
Sarah-I said:
Anders,

It really does not make any difference to me what happens in Sweden at all. I am not interested and have no plans to go there in the near future either.

Homeopaths in England however do treat children all the time and they respond extremely well to remedies and sometimes better than adults.

The only animals I treat are my own dogs when needed and they always respond to remedies very well and have never suffered uncessarily.
I do sincerely feel very sorry for the English children. It’s an outrage that let homeopaths treat innocent children that can’t make own decisions but are let out to the doings of their parents.

Do I have to remind you that Sweden has to lowest infant death rate in the world, and that’s no thanks to homeopathy?

I feel sick! You stupid woman! Using children to promote useless medicaments, I spit on you and your like!
 
Sarah-I said:

Homeopaths in England however do treat children all the time and they respond extremely well to remedies and sometimes better than adults.

Prove it. You can't. You know that. So why do you keep making claims you can't back up?

Think for second really think. You have a form of medication that you can't even tell form the stock solvent. That has no objective evidence that it works at all beyond the plkacebo effect. And this you give to children? No ethical worries at all?
 
Sarah-I said:
Anders,

It really does not make any difference to me what happens in Sweden at all. I am not interested and have no plans to go there in the near future either.

Homeopaths in England however do treat children all the time and they respond extremely well to remedies and sometimes better than adults.

The only animals I treat are my own dogs when needed and they always respond to remedies very well and have never suffered uncessarily.

Ooh, look, up she pops again to grant us more meaningless platitudes and yet again ignores the questions she's been asked.

Tell us about strokes in people, NHCoraHSarah.
Tell us about calcium plaques.
Tell us about antidiuretic injections.

You want to mix it in debate with people who do know what they are talking about, so come up with the goods. The scary thing is that you know you can't answer these questions properly so you ignore them. They betray fundamental misconceptions about medicine and yet you fancy that you can go out and pretend to the role of doctor. This is why the woos are a bunch of meddling fools.
 
Barbrae said:
Huh??? Where did youget that?

Oh a while back someone on hapthy mentioned they were having diffculty registering to a board and someone else called it the cafe. The board is the top hit on google for homeopath cafe forum.

Eddited to add the sugestion of spaming inboxs is top a page two. The forum also contains claims that we are being paid which don't seem to have any evidence to back them up.
 
Barbrae said:

[adoptsexpressionofwearypatience]Yes. The two people regarded as oracles, i.e. doorknobs, by Sarah are not true to their own brand of nonsense[/adoptsexpressionofwearypatience]

It's called using a metaphor consistently. The truth of that metaphor remains.
 
Barbrae said:
I don't know what this doctor practiced but it wasn't homeopathy.
But that's a big part of the problem. Homoeopathy seems to be anything you want it to be at the time. And usually, if the outcome is claimed to be positive, great triumph for homoeopathy, but if negative, this wasn't really homoeopathy. I know the journalist referred to "herbal" remedies somewhere in the middle, but it's most likely that this was just the journalist's ignorance that herbalism isn't homoeopathy. The main thrust of the article was that the doctor was using homoeopathy.

Lots of the stuff homoeopaths do seems to be in flat contradiction to what Hahnemann taught. Like all this stuff about learning about diagnosis - that isn't homoeopathy, you're not supposed to diagnose, you're supposed to match a remedy to the symptoms. And all the repetition of remedies, when you're supposed to give one dose and wait to see the effects. And the multiple and mixing of remedies - not homoeopathy, but homoeopaths do it and call it homoeopathy all the time.

Take Wim and his combination remedies and his frequent repetition of doses. And his throwing out remedy suggestions based on the most sketchy description of the circumstances. And yet he calls himself a classical homoeopath?

Or Mark Elliott, who dishes out the same combination of three remedies to every cat diagnosed with "hyperthyroidism" irrespective of the clinical presentation. And repeats the dose twice daily. Forever, because he says the animal will deteriorate if the dosing is stopped. What happened to that permanent cure, and homoeopathy preventing the necessity for staying on treatment? And many of the remedies he uses are actually isopathy, and he dowses for the "correct" remedy too!

But when we protest that this isn't "true homoeopathy", we're told that of course it's fine, because he claims positive results. (What's the betting that if I repeated his regime exactly to the letter, but showed by objective measurements that there was no change in the condition of the patients, my work would be dismissed as "not true homoeopathy" though?)

So really, if it works (even if it's just a trick with a lighted photo frame in a bottle), it's homoeopathy and this proves how great it is, but if it goes wrong there's always some little flaw to disown the procedure as "not homoeopathy".

Right?

Rolfe.
 
Barbrae said:
Benguin - you have some actual valid points in being skeptical against homeopathy, this post is not one of them. I don't know what this doctor practiced but it wasn't homeopathy.

Unfortunately (as Rolfe explained in more detail) there is no distinction here between someone calling themself a homeopath and someone who has right to do so. In part because there is no recognisable agreement as yet as to what a qualified homeopath would be or do.

One of the reason sceptics dismiss homeopathy is precisely because there is not a way distinguish between any old woo and someone who might actually know what they were talking about.

Your response would have more credibility if you had come out and stated Wim on hpathy should be banned from dispensing advise, if he can call himself a homeopath (and practice as such) then this doctor can.

In any case, apart from the dowsing, I don't see what evidence you are using to dismiss the homeopathic credentials of that GP.
 
If you read the full text of Mark Elliott's paper about treating Cushing's disease homoeopathically, you find that of the two remedies he chose to try, given mixed as one preparation, to all patients irrespective of their presenting signs, one was decided on because it was isopathy, and the other was decided on by dowsing.

And this is supposed to be the absolute best practice of veterinary homoeopathy.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:

And this is supposed to be the absolute best practice of veterinary homoeopathy.

And he is one of Sarah's doorknobs, so she demands that we respect him as well.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
And he is one of Sarah's doorknobs, so she demands that we respect him as well.
I don't know about Sarah's but he's one of Wim's list of those to be worshipped as gods.

Isn't it interesting the way our qualifications and knowledge are treated as no account, because of course we're evil allopathy, but the minute one of us goes woo, these same evil allopathic qualifications grant us the right to be respected and listened to above all other woos, and indeed the very fact that someone so intelligent and perceptive as an allopathic practitioner can go woo is veritable proof of the veracity of woo-ness.

Something wrong with this logic, if only I could put my finger on it....

Rolfe.
 
Benguin,

I don't think the Doctor even refered to herself as a homeopath (at least not in the article). She is a family practitioner. She dowsed and prescribed a remedy but like I have said a million times before - if I take an accupunture needle and ram it in your eye - that ain't accupunture, even if I was an accupuncturist - it still ain't accupuncture.

You must aslo be aware that for every instance of "woo" that was irresponsable I could find 10 more allopaths that were irresponsable - it means nothing to the profession. There are morons everywhere - morons in homeopathy, morons in veterinary, morons in accupuncture, morons in gastroenterology. If you won't accept anecdotes as evidence for homeopathy then you can't post anecdotes as evidence against it. (well, you can, and did, but it doesn't seem to make much sense.)
 
Rolfe said:


Isn't it interesting the way our qualifications and knowledge are treated as no account, because of course we're evil allopathy, but the minute one of us goes woo, these same evil allopathic qualifications grant us the right to be respected and listened to above all other woos, and indeed the very fact that someone so intelligent and perceptive as an allopathic practitioner can go woo is veritable proof of the veracity of woo-ness.

Something wrong with this logic, if only I could put my finger on it....

Rolfe.

Rolfe - there is something wrong with the logic and maybe I can help you put your finger on it. The reason we loudly say to you folks "Hey, Doctor Jones MD, said so...." is because we mistakenly think that YOU will value the opinion of an MD - not because we suddenly have a change of heart. They are referenced because you are supposed to cater to your audience and if your audience is a bunch of allopaths well then, it makes sense to draw reference to other allopaths - we think it will matter to YOU guys.
Not just you guys but society as a whole - becasue society opinion of MDs is that they are gods so we mention the many who do practice homeopathy - not because of our perspective but the perspective of those we are talking to.
 
Barbrae said:
Benguin,

I don't think the Doctor even refered to herself as a homeopath (at least not in the article). She is a family practitioner. She dowsed and prescribed a remedy but like I have said a million times before - if I take an accupunture needle and ram it in your eye - that ain't accupunture, even if I was an accupuncturist - it still ain't accupuncture.

OK, I see what you are saying. I can't see how she would be dishing out homeopathic remedies unless she concerned herself capable of doing so. This is a GP, not a helpful friend. I accept your point that it doesn't say whether she described herself as a homeopath so we don't know either way.

I cannot accept your definition of homeopathy only being homeopathy when being done the correct way. In all the conversations that have been held here (and hpathy) the issue of there being no defined way to state what is and is not homeopathy has come up. Homeopathic sympathisers seem to stick to the approach that where it appears damaging to their cause or position it, therefore, is not homeopathy.

Even your acupuncture analogy is flawed. Every time blinded trials are attempted on acupuncture it becomes clear the practitioners can't agree amongst themselves what is and is not a valid stabbing point .

If you recall when I attempted (on hpathy) to get an intelligent answer on how homeopathy could be practised outside of very clear guidelines specified in Hahnemann's Oragnon I got nothing approaching a sensible answer. You yourself were most vociferous in suggesting I shouldn't even ask. When you tried to rephrase the same question you also got no proper answer, and yet you did not have the integrity to state that without proper justification, making up the rules and experimenting on patients is unforgiveable.

I'm sorry Barbrae, but much as I regard you as polite and rational, I can't accept this line of reasoning. You asked me why I wanted to know the answer to the combination remedy question I posed. Well there is one very good reason for you. How are we supposed to know what is and is not homeopathy? Come back with an unambiguous definition and then you'll be able to reject 'fradulent homeopaths' with some credibility.

You must aslo be aware that for every instance of "woo" that was irresponsable I could find 10 more allopaths that were irresponsable - it means nothing to the profession. There are morons everywhere - morons in homeopathy, morons in veterinary, morons in accupuncture, morons in gastroenterology. If you won't accept anecdotes as evidence for homeopathy then you can't post anecdotes as evidence against it. (well, you can, and did, but it doesn't seem to make much sense.)

True there are morons everywhere, but show me one instance of homeopathy stumping up and disciplining one properly. The GMC and the law come down like a ton of bricks on medical staff doing things wrong, and they can sued in a civil court.

This doesn't get away from the central point of the immorality of using this unproven nonsense on children.

And on a pure point of pedantry, that story is not an anecdote. Anecdotes involve some element of hearsay and are, by definition, lacking in veracity. This particular case is incredibly well documented.

It is (as geni and rolfe would point out) n=1, or a sample size too small to mean anything other than a good example of the dangers posed by one idiot.
 

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