Veterinary homoeopathy illegal?

Barbrae said:
prester

Homeopathy, simply put is the healing of disease (that's a whole other discussion on what defines disease) through the natural law that like cures like.


So going by the current state of evidence there is no such thing as homeopathy (you've failed to prove the healing bit).

If healing through the administration of a remedy (whether the remedy be a homeopathically prepared one or not) occurs via the stimulation of the same symptoms it is intended to cure then that is homeopathy. If the remedy given is not capable of producing the same symtpoms intended to cure and amelioration of symptoms doesn't happen then it is not homeopathy.
If we change healing attemting to treat (which is all you have evidence for) then I can think of dozens (I'm a chemistry student and I tend to read safety sheets) of ways of killing within your defintion of homeopathy
 
Hydrogen Cyanide said:
Perhaps it is the impression you give with your warm bedside manner... and your continued use of a pejorative to refer to those who practice something other than homeopathy.

HC - unless I am mistaken I have been nothing but kind to you and truly tried to answer your questions and respond to your posts.
 
Huntsman said:

Doctors are all taught standards of prescription...you don't have one doctor who will proscribe 8 antibiotics at once, and another who prescribes one at a time. You don't have differences in dosage and frequency for similar conditions between doctors.

That is false - even in my own experiences.

It's not a line of thought btw - just a question of curiosity.
 
geni said:
So going by the current state of evidence there is no such thing as homeopathy (you've failed to prove the healing bit).



Well then, I am surely correct when I say that Benguins doctor was not practicing homeopthy, eh?;)

Also, PJ was not asking me to prove anything, rather offer my own definition.
 
Barbrae said:
Well then, I am surely correct when I say that Benguins doctor was not practicing homeopthy, eh?;)

Also, PJ was not asking me to prove anything, rather offer my own definition.

Yep it's just your defintion is inconstant with the evidence.

Persoanly I would clasifly the the doctor as a dabbler homeopath but thats just me.

The partial list of my defintions can be found here)
 
Barbrae said:
That is false - even in my own experiences.

It's not a line of thought btw - just a question of curiosity.

You're missing the point I'm getting to, and just as an aside personal experience is not a valid evidentiary source.

I can say you won't have a doctor prescribe multiple antibiotics at once. Different ones over time, perhaps, but you won't see, for example, one doctor give zithromyacin for pneumonia while the next decides to give amoxicillin, penicillin, and keflex all at once. You also won't have one doctor claiming that you need to take one 100mg pill a day for your pneumonia on an empty stomach, while another claims that you need to take two pills every three hours and only after eating. My point is there are standards and practices for prescribing medications, and doctors who fail to follow these standards suffer repercusions that can include losing their license of even criminal charges. Doctors are reviewed and held accountable.

IN homeopathy there is no agreement on dosage, frequency of dosage, size of dosage, multiple remedy interactions, remedy selection, or much else. You never know if the homeopath you're going to see practices "your" brand of homeopathy or not, because there's no regulation and no standard. You are quick to claim that certain people are "not practicing real homeopathy", the question people here are trying to get you to answer is how can you tell?

I know when a doctor is not practicing real medicine. Patients are misinformed or given treatments that are not needed, the doctor uses drugs or techniques that are not approved for use and haven't been tested, the docotr bills my insurance company for treatments never performed, and so on. Any treatment the doctor gives me, I can verify at any other doctor. Those who are practicing medicine will be in general agreement as to the treatment needed (they might argue about whether one antibiotic would be more appropriate than another, or whether surgery or chemotherapy was required, etc...however, they all understand these treatments and know their validity...they are in agreement).

With a homeopath, you can go to another one and get the "not real homeopathy" story if you're critical, or the "it doesn't matter, it works, really" story if you're gullible. Reading certain pro-homeopathy boards, these "unreal" homeopaths seem to be defended whenever anyone asks questions, and only pointed out as unreal when a skeptic asks about the multiple techniques and methods used. Then they're not "real" homeopaths. But no one reports these unreal homeopaths to a review board, no one files charges against them for mispracticing homeopathy and placing patients at risk, in fact, real or not, they have as much of a valid claim to homeopathy as anyone. If a doctor began talking about how antibiotics were no good, and refused to prescribe them to his patients, he could most definately be opening himself up for review and legal action. And it would be a relatively clear cut case in determining whether he was following acceptable medical practice or not.
 
Barbrae said:
You misread me Rolfe - this is not sulking - it's calling you to the carpet when you make comments regarding my character or actions that are plainly false. You have a bad habit of saying whatever you wish regarding us homeopaths with little or no truth to your comments. SO care to back up how I am "very keen to denigrate real medicine and what doctors do, you tell anyone who will listen about all the mistakes they make and how stupid you think they are. Rolfe. "

or would you care to look at reality and realize that I have over and over again said I think allopathy is needed and helpful in human and animal medicine? Just for the record - I don't think allopaths are EVIL - I believe that the majority of them want to heal people. But that doesn't mean that allopaths or allopathy is perfect - there is a lot of room to change - and that should be discussed, which apparently is not allowed here because whenever any negatuive aspect of allopathy is mentioned by a "woo" we are jumped upon and guilty of "denigrating" the medical system.

Ah, didn't I say when hypocrisy speaks she should do well to listen to her own voice?
Funny how you're intent on trying to drive Rolfe-luv into a corner. Although, as a nitpicker, you are a rank amateur at best. And I have noticed that Rolfe and others are always polite and serious about what they are discussing with someone, until the believer (for it is usually a believer) starts hurling insults and/or avoids the key points of the discussion for one reason or another.

And once again, Barbrae is not addressing the issues, but is pulling the "woe is me I can't voice my point of view I get slapped down I'm persecuted." Nevermind your assertions and beliefs are thus far flawed; even the idea that "allopathy" as you insist on calling it, is scrutinized as carefully as "homeopathy" (whatever your definition of it is this hour). And the idea of "room for change" implies a viable system in place; that has not been accepted as a viable theory for those who can do basic chemistry.

Don't even think for a moment that your opinion or assertions are as valid as anyone else's; if it's flawed, or arguable, skeptics will voice that; we don't discriminate against "woo" or "skeptic," they are all equally under scrutiny.

It's an equal playing field here. Either play by the rules or get out of the game.
 
Barb,

I don't think I am the only one here that finds disingenuous your bleating about how badly treated you are and how terribly misrepresented while another very clearly labelled thread on homeopathy struggles on without your valuable insights;

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46090&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Let's assume you have somehow managed not to notice the topic being discussed here or at Otherhealth. Now you've been given a "heads up", let's hear what you and Sarah have to say.

So, Barb, this 'grafting' business? Where do you stand on it?
 
Barbrae said:
Homeopathy, simply put is the healing of disease (that's a whole other discussion on what defines disease) through the natural law that like cures like.
This is not a natural law - it is a "law" that Hahnemann came up with. He based his conclusions on totally anecdotal evidence. Isaac Newton, for example, actually did come up with a few real natural laws.

If healing through the administration of a remedy (whether the remedy be a homeopathically prepared one or not) occurs via the stimulation of the same symptoms it is intended to cure then that is homeopathy.
So is treating allergies with diluted allegens homeopathy?
If the remedy given is not capable of producing the same symtpoms intended to cure and amelioration of symptoms doesn't happen then it is not homeopathy.
So first the provings have to show the same symptoms, and second, even if you have the correct remedy, it is not homeopathy unless the symptoms are ameliorated? Bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card don't you think?

The problem with provings is correlating the symptoms with the substance under test - not easy without proper controls. Another problem is the ethics of these provings - who was the poor sod who tested mercury or belladonna or arsenic? Who is (has?) going to test radioactive substances to find a remedy for radiation sickness?

Another problem I can think of is the water used for the remedy that, no matter how distilled, has come into contact with other substances previously must therefore be contaminated homeopathically as a result. Actually, on that note, if the power of the remedy is in the water then what about tablet based remedies? The water has all but gone.

Now, what makes a homeopath is a different story - but that's not what you asked.

how do you define conventional medicine? How do you define a medical doctor? Is it simply having an MD after your name?
We're trying to find out about homeopathy medicine, not conventional medicine, but now that you ask: I reckon that "conventional medicine" is a term created by alt-meds to differentiate it from their own brand, a bit like that ghastly "allopath" word. It is a useful tag to use so that all of the ills of a disgruntled or suspicious client can be heaped upon it easily.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
Barb,

I don't think I am the only one here that finds disingenuous your bleating about how badly treated you are and how terribly misrepresented while another very clearly labelled thread on homeopathy struggles on without your valuable insights;

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46090&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Let's assume you have somehow managed not to notice the topic being discussed here or at Otherhealth. Now you've been given a "heads up", let's hear what you and Sarah have to say.

So, Barb, this 'grafting' business? Where do you stand on it?

what a cynic - no, I hadn't seen the grafting thread, until late yesterday and in fact I did try to post on it but my post is not htere. Just for the record - I never really frequent otherhealth at all.

What exactly is your question? Do I believe grafting works? Do I graft my remedies?

I have never grafted a dry remedy, unless necessity dictates (ie - I run out). I will occasionaly use the principle to continue a water potency but even that is very rare.
 
Kiwi Kid said:
This is not a natural law - it is a "law" that Hahnemann came up with. He based his conclusions on totally anecdotal evidence. Isaac Newton, for example, actually did come up with a few real natural laws.

So is treating allergies with diluted allegens homeopathy?

Regarding the natural law comment - again, prester asked for MY definition of homeopathy - not to "prove" anything. BTW I have already discussed the natural comment in another post.

Regarding treating allergies with dilute allergens - It depends on what symptoms are produced and what is being looked at to cure, however - treating same with same is isopathy not homeopathy.

Homeopathy is like or similar, isopathy is exactly the same.
 
Kiwi Kid said:


We're trying to find out about homeopathy medicine, not conventional medicine, but now that you ask: I reckon that "conventional medicine" is a term created by alt-meds to differentiate it from their own brand, a bit like that ghastly "allopath" word. It is a useful tag to use so that all of the ills of a disgruntled or suspicious client can be heaped upon it easily.

Thanks for making my point - I can't even ask for a definition of conventional medicine without the old tired line - we are talking about homeopathy, don't bring up conventional medicine or your just trying to evade or distract or whatever.

I am asking because the message was that there is no consistant definaition of homeopathy so - I'd like to see if there is a consistant definition of conventional medicine by this group. So how do you define it?
 
Suezoled said:

Don't even think for a moment that your opinion or assertions are as valid as anyone else's; if it's flawed, or arguable, skeptics will voice that; we don't discriminate against "woo" or "skeptic," they are all equally under scrutiny.

It's an equal playing field here. Either play by the rules or get out of the game.

No it isn't - not at all. and you absolutly do discriminate against us "woos", from the moment someone identifies themselves as a "woo" (how can anyone complain about my using the word allopathy when that insult is thrown out in every single post btw - hypocrisy).
 
Barbrae said:
Thanks for making my point - I can't even ask for a definition of conventional medicine without the old tired line - we are talking about homeopathy, don't bring up conventional medicine or your just trying to evade or distract or whatever.

I am asking because the message was that there is no consistant definaition of homeopathy so - I'd like to see if there is a consistant definition of conventional medicine by this group. So how do you define it?
Conventional medicine could perhaps be defined as helping patient get healthy by using methods that are scientifically proven, and proven to work.
 
Barbrae said:
what a cynic - no, I hadn't seen the grafting thread, until late yesterday and in fact I did try to post on it but my post is not htere. Just for the record - I never really frequent otherhealth at all.

What exactly is your question? Do I believe grafting works? Do I graft my remedies?

Those will do just fine as questions. So let's move on to your answers. But for tidiness, it would obviously be better to post them in the relevant thread.

I have never grafted a dry remedy, unless necessity dictates (ie - I run out). I will occasionaly use the principle to continue a water potency but even that is very rare.
Raising the necessary question already put by Rolfe in the relevant thread- why ever do anything else if grafting works?


 
Barbrae said:
Thanks for making my point - I can't even ask for a definition of conventional medicine without the old tired line - we are talking about homeopathy, don't bring up conventional medicine or your just trying to evade or distract or whatever.

I am asking because the message was that there is no consistant definaition of homeopathy so - I'd like to see if there is a consistant definition of conventional medicine by this group. So how do you define it?

Medicine

http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=medicine

"1. The science which relates to the prevention, cure, or alleviation of disease."


Conventional

http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=conventional

"2. Growing out of, or depending on, custom or tacit agreement; sanctioned by general concurrence or usage; formal. "


The definition from Webster's is astonishingly apposite. Note the presence of the word science, in other words "medicine" of any type should be able to demonstrate its efficacy, the very definition includes the requirement for internal consistency and consistency with externally verifiable facts. Homeopathy is internally inconsistent and inconsistent with externally verifiable facts. The reason you refuse, or at best struggle so much you daren't put anything in print, to define it is that it is impossible to define without snagging yourself on one or other of its erroneous ideas or logical fallacies.

So, Barb, we've given you a nice neat definition of medicine, how about one for homeopathy that you and all your colleagues can be judged by. I agree with geni, the best definition would be to stick to what Hahnemann said, so you had better defend;


  • Multiple tablets

    Repeated dosing

    Dowsing and other mad diagnostic ideas

    Combination therapy as promoted by Wim and unchallenged by you

    Adherence to and dependence on conventional medical diagnoses

    Prescribing to those diagnoses without taking full homeopathic histories

    Use of "constitutional remedies"

    Using homeopathy as a complement to medicine rather than as an alternative

    "Grafting"- this really is the funniest yet. I'd love answers to this one even if you don't bother with the rest

    "Plussing"

    The lack of leather bound Bibles in pharmacies

    All the other problems of manufacture that mean you have no idea what the pharmacies are really selling you or which of the various steps in manufacture are required to produce a successful remedy since they all make it up as they go along.

    Er...that'll do for now!
 
Barbrae said:
No it isn't - not at all. and you absolutly do discriminate against us "woos", from the moment someone identifies themselves as a "woo" (how can anyone complain about my using the word allopathy when that insult is thrown out in every single post btw - hypocrisy).

Hahaha!
Yeah okay. Discrimination based on, at best, inconclusive tests that should have shown itself to be a viable system over 200 years ago. Funny how that still hasn't happened yet. Nope, you're right, your assertions are held in contempt, simply because it's not yet shown itself (in a mere 200+ years) to be as effective as its nemesis counterpart, mainstream medicine. Once homeopathy shows itself as viable, it would be welcomed and integrated into the main system; it would aid in the greater good.
Ah, but right now, it's serving as a crutch for you to make the "woe is me" claim yet again.

Tangent...
This adherence to such a system as this is an interesting observation of psychology, actually....
 
Barbrae said:
You misread me Rolfe - this is not sulking - it's calling you to the carpet when you make comments regarding my character or actions that are plainly false. You have a bad habit of saying whatever you wish regarding us homeopaths with little or no truth to your comments. SO care to back up how I am "very keen to denigrate real medicine and what doctors do, you tell anyone who will listen about all the mistakes they make and how stupid you think they are. Rolfe. "

or would you care to look at reality and realize that I have over and over again said I think allopathy is needed and helpful in human and animal medicine? Just for the record - I don't think allopaths are EVIL - I believe that the majority of them want to heal people. But that doesn't mean that allopaths or allopathy is perfect - there is a lot of room to change - and that should be discussed, which apparently is not allowed here because whenever any negatuive aspect of allopathy is mentioned by a "woo" we are jumped upon and guilty of "denigrating" the medical system.
And I never said you ever said that all "allopaths" are evil. I think others have already provided quite enough examples of your regular habit of denigrating real medicine whenever you can. Though, as I've said from the start, you clearly have little or no idea of how rude you frequently are.

Now, let's agree on one thing. "Allopathy" is a fictitious system of medicine characterised by treating with opposites. If mainstream medicine could ever have been characterised as doing that (it certainly never adopted it as a philosophical approach, or declared it to be a natural law), these days are long gone. I never studied anything called "allopathy", nor was I ever taught that treating symptoms by substances producing the opposite signs was a natural law, nor was it ever suggested to me that this was a reasonable approach to any branch of medicine. And this goes for every other qualified doctor and dentist and vet alive today.

So, if you use the term "allopathy", I will assume that you are speaking of this nebulous "treat with opposites" philosophy, which if it ever existed, evaporated sometime in the late 19th century. Nothing to do with me. Or anybody else.

So, I do NOT agree that allopathy is perfect, or beneficial, or necessary, or anything other than a term made up by Hahnemann to describe his take on what some of his contemporaries were doing.

If you want to talk about conventional medicine, scientific medicine, evidence-based medicine or whatever, I suggest you find a term both parties will recognise.

Rolfe.
 
Homeopathy is:-

- a well established and complete system of medicine which has been in world wide use for over 200 years;

- a natural, safe, effective and scientific system of healing which supports the body's natural desire to heal itself;

- a holistic approach to health, which incorporates the emotional and mental aspects of a persons well-being in addition to the physical.
 

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