• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Vegetarianism

The latter part of this thread reminds me of debates about what "atheists believe" or their motives for believing. And the opposition's evangelism is similar.

Simply put, a person may stop using meat for any reason imaginable and still call himself a vegetarian. There is no vow or shared belief system a person must subscribe to in order to be a vegetarian, beyond simply not eating meat.

While some may object to the texture, smell, or taste of meat, all do not. They simply refrain from eating real meat for the personal reason du jour.

There is no vow or shared belief system a person must subscribe to in order to be an atheist, beyond simply finding insufficient evidence upon which to base a belief in the supernatural.

While some may object to the attributes of religion, all do not. They simply refrain from believing in the supernatural.

;)
 
Yes.

Are there then any production methods that this vast majority would allow to happen that would change their eating habbits?

My opinion on this as a vegetarian:

No matter how it was produced, I would not eat meat because I personally like animals more than I like the taste of meat. If my life depended on it, I'd eat meat, but not so long as it is optional.


I have no problem with other people eating meat though. I cook meat for my husband.

However, I have a big problem with the cruelty and environmental hazards posed by large scale industrial farming. I purchase free range meat, eggs, and dairy from local farms. I am hugely in favor of laws which would regulate the way factory farms operate to provide certain environmental standards and more humane conditions for livestock. I am in favor of this even if it causes the price of animal products to increase. Especially because Americans as a whole eat far too much dairy and meat. Both dairy and meat are not inherently unhealthy, but they are in excessive quantities. I had participated in successful campaigns in Florida in which we have gotten questions on the ballot which improved conditions for farming for animals that were voted into effect. One of the reasons these campaigns were successful is because vegetarian groups formed coalitions with small, family owned farms, which did not have such excessively inhumane conditions in the first place (unlike factory farms).

Just thinking; meat being produced in a humane way wouldn't make me any more likely to eat meat. However, I personally do know people who are not vegetarians, but who will only eat humanely raised meat or meat obtained from hunting.

I can't say what percent of vegetarians that includes, I've never looked into it. What I have found in my limited experience is that how strict a vegetarian is depends on their age/length of time they have been a vegetarian. Many vegetarians I know became vegetarians at a young age, and started out being strict vegetarians or even vegans. However, over time (particularly if they married non vegetarians) they started to eat humanely raised meat, though pretty rarely. In college I knew a lot more vegetarians when most of my friends were in their teens and early twenties than I do now when my friends are in their late twenties to early forties. Now I know a lot more former vegetarians who eat small amounts of humanely raised meat. I'm actually one of the only people I know who was a vegetarian ten years ago and still is today.

But on the other hand, I know quite a few former non discriminating meat eaters who have greatly decreased their meat intake for health reasons. This I think is not so much due to vegetarian campaigns as to campaigns in recent years from medical associations like the American Cancer Society, American Heart Association, American Diabetes Foundation, etc, on the importance of a low meat high plant diet. In addition to public education campaigns, I work in health care, and now in large hospitals it is fairly standard practice to recommend nutritional counseling for people with chronic diseases (or who are at genetic risk for diseases like cancer) to explain to them how a diet low in meat and processed foods and high in plant material significantly decreases their risk factors.

It should be noted that I do live in Boston though, the medical provider/research capital of the nation, if not the world. An enormous number of people in the area work in health care or in health care research or know a lot of people who do. So I live in a population which is probably much more informed about health and nutrition than the general population.
 
Last edited:
What a shock, someone worked in a jab at religion on a totally unrelated topic at JREF (athough I will say it's certainly one of the tamer ones). There's something new. :rolleyes:

And again I'd love to know where some of you live that people are trying to "force you to agree with them" about vegetarianism. I've yet to experience or even hear of such a thing happening - and I know people in the depths of Hippieland, California too. :cool:

For some people, being exposed to new information can be seen as indoctrination, especially if the details include harm. The same thing happens when they are exposed to that same information over and over. They feel they are expected to do something about it which would include changing to suit another person's viewpoint.

With vegetarianism the information is about environmental impact or inhumane conditions. So if they are eating a burger and someone starts telling them about slaughterhouses, eating that burger appears to become a statement of approval for inhumane slaughter of animals instead of just lunch.

This can be hugely frustrating for the activist vegetarian who feels that most people will lean towards more humane choices if they have all the information. If you don't give them the facts, they have no reason to change. If you do, they think you're trying to get them to eat nothing but free-range, organic, alfalfa sprouts.
 
Vegetarians don't eat smegging fish. It's not rocket science.

I refuse to be labelled anyway; it becomes complicated when you realise that eating eggs, drinking milk still results in animal culling (male chicks and calves).

I concur.

Nor do they eat chicken.

Eating a little bit of fish or chicken means you eat a little bit of chicken or fish on occasion.

It doesn't mean you are a vegetarian.
 
What a shock, someone worked in a jab at religion on a totally unrelated topic at JREF (athough I will say it's certainly one of the tamer ones). There's something new. :rolleyes:

And again I'd love to know where some of you live that people are trying to "force you to agree with them" about vegetarianism. I've yet to experience or even hear of such a thing happening - and I know people in the depths of Hippieland, California too. :cool:

It's not where I live, it's the fact that I'm a farmer and have to worry about animal "rights" activists, and as far as I know they are all vegetarian, and that is their goal for everyone... I've never been hit but some friend's farms have been broken into, animals set loose, equipment stolen, equipment ruined. One guy in UT had all his rare pheasants set loose and many were killed on the highway. I suppose you may not see that as "force" but I'm afraid I do. And I'm afraid that, in my opinion, it's the same motivator as you see in that Baptist church group who go and do their hate campaign at funerals of soldiers, or any militant religious group, who seem to want everyone to believe the same way they do.

Sorry if I offended you.
 
It's not where I live, it's the fact that I'm a farmer and have to worry about animal "rights" activists, and as far as I know they are all vegetarian, and that is their goal for everyone... I've never been hit but some friend's farms have been broken into, animals set loose, equipment stolen, equipment ruined. One guy in UT had all his rare pheasants set loose and many were killed on the highway. I suppose you may not see that as "force" but I'm afraid I do. And I'm afraid that, in my opinion, it's the same motivator as you see in that Baptist church group who go and do their hate campaign at funerals of soldiers, or any militant religious group, who seem to want everyone to believe the same way they do.

Sorry if I offended you.

The ALF and the groups they inspire are jackasses. Their website has pictures of them vandalizing property with spray-paint graffiti, an act that does not benefit any animal or is counter-productive to the goal of reaching people through existing empathy.
 
If only I had made such an assumption you might have a point. You can't see the possibility of avoiding meat because it's found not palatable by some? It seems that every vegetarian I've run across in the past (outside of health issues) uses that reason ... and it's been more than just a handful.

Can't see the possibility? Not only CAN I see the possibility, I brought it up earlier and pointed out that a person who has gone vegetarian for that reason probably wouldn't be thrilled at the idea of eating faux-meat.

What you seem to be ignoring is that those people aren't the majority of vegetarians; indeed, you seem to be ignoring the fact that people can be vegetarian for other reasons at all.

Just for comparison here: I know many people who are vegetarians or vegan in Melbourne, and I know of exactly one person who does so because they don't like the taste. So congratulations on your personal experience: have a freaking cookie.
 
It's not where I live, it's the fact that I'm a farmer and have to worry about animal "rights" activists, and as far as I know they are all vegetarian, and that is their goal for everyone... I've never been hit but some friend's farms have been broken into, animals set loose, equipment stolen, equipment ruined. One guy in UT had all his rare pheasants set loose and many were killed on the highway. I suppose you may not see that as "force" but I'm afraid I do. And I'm afraid that, in my opinion, it's the same motivator as you see in that Baptist church group who go and do their hate campaign at funerals of soldiers, or any militant religious group, who seem to want everyone to believe the same way they do.

Sorry if I offended you.
Not offended at all, just sick to death of the anti-theist/anti-Christian dribblings on this site. Pardon if I came on a little strong and appreciate the clarifications.

I just think it's important to point out (and keep in mind) that in both cases, you're talking about an extremely small % of the overall group, be it militant animal rights PETA-type aholes or militant religious aholes.

If someone breaks into your farm, I suggest you shoot them and use them as fertilizer. I suspect they would be good that way, given what they're full of. :cool:

Again my point was really just that I keep seeing people go "don't force your vegetarianism on me!" as if this is rampant. Silly, to put it kindly.
 
Again my point was really just that I keep seeing people go "don't force your vegetarianism on me!" as if this is rampant. Silly, to put it kindly.

Actually, I have found it rampant, although this was mainly back in the late nineties, early noughties, when going vegetarian (or even worse, vegan) was kind of a lifestyle shibboleth for douches, where I'm from. Just because you haven't come across those sanctimonious asses doesn't mean no one has.

Back then I was a don't-mind-me-just-doing-my-own-thing-you-do-yours-vegetarian and I constantly ran into people who tried to "convert" me to vegetarianism. It never registered with them that I was already vegetarian - they assumed I ate meat since I didn't wear "Meat is Murder" buttons or looked like I had been dragged backwards through a hippie-hedge. And when they found out I already was vegetarian they weren't happy anyway. Either they felt cheated out of a conversion, or they started badgering me to go vegan. Out of the vegans I knew, about 50% of them were covering up an eating disorder, 25% thought it would make them healthier and cure them from chronic bowel disorders and 25% were just raving looneys who wanted to feel holier than thou and have a reason to be pissed off all the time. Needless to say, I preferred to hang with the bowel-vegans, despite the smell.

I'm sure there is a group of vegans with the same attitude to their diet as the one I had, but I didn't get to hang out with those.

My decision to include fauna in my diet once again was directly related to one of those douches right here on JREF. There was a particular vegetarian poster who kept being exceptionally arrogant. Whatever the good evidence for a vegetarian diet is, this poster did not have access to it, but instead resorted to the usual "I have evolved to a higher plane" crap and linking stupid, fail-research along with sprinkling every missive with an over abundance of stupid emoticons. And I thought: "Goddam it this is it! I'm going back to meat. If anyone could convince me to eat meat it's this pimhole, because I will not have anything that associates me with this fusking cloff prunker. This person makes me ashamed to be vertebrate."

That very day, I had bolognese and it wasn't quorn. If I ever see that the idiot in question has unregistered, I may go back, but until then no bacon is safe from me. Yes. I hate smileys THAT much.
 
Actually, I have found it rampant, although this was mainly back in the late nineties, early noughties, when going vegetarian (or even worse, vegan) was kind of a lifestyle shibboleth for douches, where I'm from. Just because you haven't come across those sanctimonious asses doesn't mean no one has.

Back then I was a don't-mind-me-just-doing-my-own-thing-you-do-yours-vegetarian and I constantly ran into people who tried to "convert" me to vegetarianism. It never registered with them that I was already vegetarian - they assumed I ate meat since I didn't wear "Meat is Murder" buttons or looked like I had been dragged backwards through a hippie-hedge. And when they found out I already was vegetarian they weren't happy anyway. Either they felt cheated out of a conversion, or they started badgering me to go vegan. Out of the vegans I knew, about 50% of them were covering up an eating disorder, 25% thought it would make them healthier and cure them from chronic bowel disorders and 25% were just raving looneys who wanted to feel holier than thou and have a reason to be pissed off all the time. Needless to say, I preferred to hang with the bowel-vegans, despite the smell.

I'm sure there is a group of vegans with the same attitude to their diet as the one I had, but I didn't get to hang out with those.

My decision to include fauna in my diet once again was directly related to one of those douches right here on JREF. There was a particular vegetarian poster who kept being exceptionally arrogant. Whatever the good evidence for a vegetarian diet is, this poster did not have access to it, but instead resorted to the usual "I have evolved to a higher plane" crap and linking stupid, fail-research along with sprinkling every missive with an over abundance of stupid emoticons. And I thought: "Goddam it this is it! I'm going back to meat. If anyone could convince me to eat meat it's this pimhole, because I will not have anything that associates me with this fusking cloff prunker. This person makes me ashamed to be vertebrate."

That very day, I had bolognese and it wasn't quorn. If I ever see that the idiot in question has unregistered, I may go back, but until then no bacon is safe from me. Yes. I hate smileys THAT much.

Jesus that is sad if it's true...
 
Jesus that is sad if it's true...

It is true. Why would that be sad? Are you saying I don't have the right to make my dietary choices for whatever reason I like? Including not wanting to be associated with flusking cloff prunkers?

Are you in fact pontificating?
 
Have any of you run into people who call themselves vegetarian but eat fish and/or chicken.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian) has definitions for these variations



I had a neighbor who was a Jain and she said if it had a face she didn't eat it. That seems to me to be a pretty good definition of vegetarianism. I just take issue with people who essentially don't eat red meat and call themselves vegetarians. I have never confronted anyone on this but it has always irked me.

I was just curious if others have had the same experience.

I've never understood why people need to apply a label to their eating habits. A vegetarian friend of mine doesn't miss any meat, except bacon and they miss that terribly. Well then, eat bacon I say to them to which they reply that that would mean they weren't a vegetarian as if that was some sort of reason. They're only vegetarian for the health aspects so I can't understand why they don't just eat healthily, which can certainly include a bit of bacon now and again and don't label themselves as anything other than a healthy eater but they just don't see that as feasible and I just don't get the logic.:confused:

Then again, I always like to point out to them that as they expect me to eat a vegetarian meal when I stay round their place they should be happy to eat a meat based meal when staying at mine but they can't see that either :p.
 
Have any of you run into people who call themselves vegetarian but eat fish and/or chicken.
Spanish speaking countries. My experience is Peru and Spain, but basically in these cultures vegetarian is thought to mean that you don't eat red meat, carne. That was considered weird enough in some parts of Peru I visited. Not eating fish or chicken was beyond a lot of the locals' comprehension. (Note: I'm not veggie but some of my travel companions were).
 
I have a friend I used to play softball with, who is a spousal vegetarian. His wife is very much an activist vegetarian. No fish, beef, chicken, pork etc. After every game he would make sure we went out to the bar so he could order a huge bacon cheese burger. He said one of the main reasons he plays softball is to be able to eat meat.

If the FSM hadn't wanted us to eat meat he wouldn't taste so good with meatballs.
 
Spanish speaking countries. My experience is Peru and Spain, but basically in these cultures vegetarian is thought to mean that you don't eat red meat, carne. That was considered weird enough in some parts of Peru I visited. Not eating fish or chicken was beyond a lot of the locals' comprehension. (Note: I'm not veggie but some of my travel companions were).
I believe the Catholic church used to teach fish aren't animals.
 
It is true. Why would that be sad? Are you saying I don't have the right to make my dietary choices for whatever reason I like? Including not wanting to be associated with flusking cloff prunkers?

Are you in fact pontificating?

I'm saying that basing an life decision on the principle "I'm worried about what other people's opinion of me is" is a sad and troublesome justification.

You want to eat meat? Fine, whatever. But if your reasons for eating meat are as you outlined above, then you need to start caring a lot less about what other people think of you.

Of course, maybe you have a huge list of reasons that you eat meat. But then we're into the realm of "I was totally vegetarian but then it turns out vegetarians are JERKS so I'm not vegetarian anymore" stories, which don't have any point except to bash vegetarians ("OMG I totally knew a vegetarian who was soooo mean too!")

Note that I never said that you don't have the right to make up your own mind for whatever reason you choose. But if you're going to post your reasons up to make some kind of point, don't get all snippy when someone points out that the reasons as presented reflect more poorly on you than on anything else.
 
It is true. Why would that be sad? Are you saying I don't have the right to make my dietary choices for whatever reason I like? Including not wanting to be associated with flusking cloff prunkers?

Are you in fact pontificating?

I have the right to bet all my money on lucky 21 on the casino. It's still sad.
 
Actually, I have found it rampant, although this was mainly back in the late nineties, early noughties, when going vegetarian (or even worse, vegan) was kind of a lifestyle shibboleth for douches, where I'm from. Just because you haven't come across those sanctimonious asses doesn't mean no one has.

Back then I was a don't-mind-me-just-doing-my-own-thing-you-do-yours-vegetarian and I constantly ran into people who tried to "convert" me to vegetarianism. It never registered with them that I was already vegetarian - they assumed I ate meat since I didn't wear "Meat is Murder" buttons or looked like I had been dragged backwards through a hippie-hedge. And when they found out I already was vegetarian they weren't happy anyway. Either they felt cheated out of a conversion, or they started badgering me to go vegan. Out of the vegans I knew, about 50% of them were covering up an eating disorder, 25% thought it would make them healthier and cure them from chronic bowel disorders and 25% were just raving looneys who wanted to feel holier than thou and have a reason to be pissed off all the time. Needless to say, I preferred to hang with the bowel-vegans, despite the smell.

I'm sure there is a group of vegans with the same attitude to their diet as the one I had, but I didn't get to hang out with those.

My decision to include fauna in my diet once again was directly related to one of those douches right here on JREF. There was a particular vegetarian poster who kept being exceptionally arrogant. Whatever the good evidence for a vegetarian diet is, this poster did not have access to it, but instead resorted to the usual "I have evolved to a higher plane" crap and linking stupid, fail-research along with sprinkling every missive with an over abundance of stupid emoticons. And I thought: "Goddam it this is it! I'm going back to meat. If anyone could convince me to eat meat it's this pimhole, because I will not have anything that associates me with this fusking cloff prunker. This person makes me ashamed to be vertebrate."

That very day, I had bolognese and it wasn't quorn. If I ever see that the idiot in question has unregistered, I may go back, but until then no bacon is safe from me. Yes. I hate smileys THAT much.

lol - I stand corrected. Mind if I ask what part of the country/world you live?
 

Back
Top Bottom