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Vegans cause animals to go extinct?

Lukraak_Sisser said:
One thing I've never understood about the vegan diet (but possibly a derail). Why no milk products at all? I can understand not using milk from intensive farms or other farms that go agains a person's ethics. But dairy cattle does need to be milked daily due to how they were bred over millennia. If its treated kindly and given the room it needs, and not fed anything against personal ethics, would a vegan use milk?
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http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/dairy-industry.aspx
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
One thing I've never understood about the vegan diet (but possibly a derail). Why no milk products at all? I can understand not using milk from intensive farms or other farms that go agains a person's ethics. But dairy cattle does need to be milked daily due to how they were bred over millennia. If its treated kindly and given the room it needs, and not fed anything against personal ethics, would a vegan use milk?
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That's a pretty big "if"...those dairy cows that have been bred for millennia to be production monsters are under enormous physiological stress. But setting this aside, I wouldn't drink milk because I know where veal comes from.

I can conceive of situations where I might eat eggs, but they're so contrived that they're not really worth talking about.
 
citizenzen said:
I can understand not using milk from intensive farms or other farms that go agains a person's ethics. But dairy cattle does need to be milked daily due to how they were bred over millennia. If its treated kindly and given the room it needs, and not fed anything against personal ethics, would a vegan use milk?
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You still need to "enslave" the cow.
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I can't say I've ever seen anyone argue that a cow raised with genuine compassion is "enslaved". Not from PETA, not categorical abolitionists like Tom Regan, welfarists like Peter Singer, not from ALF sympathizers, or even the most annoyingly preachy vegans. Undoubtedly there's some ultra fringe hardliner who has commented that compassionately cared for animals are "enslaved", but its not a view I've ever seen, its probably not a mainstream principle that many vegans agree with.

I am aware that many or most vegans won't use milk from "free range" farms because the term "free range" has no meaning whatsoever. Cows on free range farms are constantly impregnated to lactate, male calfs aren't pretty good for anything so they're sold off to veal producers, "spent" cows are sold for slaughter. There are similar problems with free range eggs in that chickens can be still overcrowded, debeaked, and males ground up into chicken feed.
 
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Dessi said:
I can't say I've ever seen anyone argue that a cow raised with genuine compassion is "enslaved".
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The cow is not free to come and go as it please, it is kept confined with barbed wire or electric fencing. The cow is pressed into employment whether its wants to work or not. I have often seen reluctant cows put to a whip or stick. When cows no longer can produce according the the owners satisfaction, they are often killed.

If that isn't enslavement, I don't know what is.

If that is "genuine compassion" than I'm afraid I no longer understand the meaning of those words.
 
Thanks for answering, I guess it's more about what a person themselves define as exploitation or not.
While I do not share your philosophy I find it interesting to learn what people all over the world think.
 
citizenzen said:
The cow is not free to come and go as it please, it is kept confined with barbed wire or electric fencing. The cow is pressed into employment whether its wants to work or not. I have often seen reluctant cows put to a whip or stick. When cows no longer can produce according the the owners satisfaction, they are often killed.

If that isn't enslavement, I don't know what is.

If that is "genuine compassion" than I'm afraid I no longer understand the meaning of those words.
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Gotcha. Yes, I agree, I would not use milk from cows in that condition.

From my impression of Lukraak_Sisser's post, it sounds like he was asking whether ethical vegans would use milk from cows given space they need and kind treatment -- presumably avoiding the sorts of practices that ethical vegans normally criticize in the first place, much like the Aussie woman and her hens. If I raised cows, they would be treated like any other animal companion, cared for throughout their natural life, milked occasionally for their health and comfort.

My apologies for misunderstanding.
 
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Dessi said:
snip...If I raised cows, they would be treated like any other animal companion, cared for throughout their natural life, milked occasionally for their health and comfort.
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Here's the problem: you have to have a cow that has calved to get milk. You take the calf away from the cow and feed it milk replacer while you milk the cow so you have something to pour on your free-range gluten-free rooftop-grown Frosted Flakes ("They're GRRRRREEEEN!"). You can't milk a cow "occasionally for their health and comfort" without depriving the calf of a meal. I think this is why the hard line vegans object to the use of dairy products.

Even if you did keep the calf with the cow, you'd have to use a fence or something to keep them close so you could get some milk, otherwise they'd never be around when you wanted some udder squeezings.
 
Cavemonster said:
OP mixes vegan and vegetarian.
There are plenty of cows in India where they are not eaten as meat.
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This is essentially a myth that is reinforced by fundamentalist upper caste Hindu propaganda. Beef is consumed in India by a lot of non Hindus and also many Hindu communities in South India. It is quite freely available in the state of Kerala even in hotels, and I assume this would be true of other states also.

Apart from the religious status a=of the cow, which was actually quite recently established and not as ancient as people would have us believe, cattle is not just used for meat in India, there is milk, it is used in rural areas in agriculture to plough fields and also for transportation (bull or cow drawn carts).
 
citizenzen said:
Oh, that kind of hunting.

I'm a Yank, and hadn't thought of that.

A couple of thoughts ...

We do keep 4 out of 6 cats indoors all the time. The outside world is a dangerous place for both cats and birds, and we feel strongly about minimizing the damage cats can do to the animals in our backyard.

One of the cats that we do allow out had a taste of outdoor living as a younger cat (before we rescued it) and demanded (by pooping and peeing all over the place) to be let outside. It, and one other cat that had been habituated to the outdoors are allowed out during the day. We bring both in for the night.

And to tell you the truth, birds do suffer for it. One just died the other day. But we're trying to do what we can to min-i-mize the damage, including trimming bushes to remove hiding places, and belling if it comes to it.

The concept of the damage that cats can do to the local fauna isn't lost on us. Cats should ideally be kept indoors for their own safety and the safety of other animals. And always spay or neuter your cats. The world certainly doesn't need too many of those vicious little beasts running around.

As for hunting, I'm definitely pro fox.
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Fair enough - but two points in response:

- What you do with your cat isn't what every other vegetarian does.
- I think your proposed treatment of cats (keeping them locked up) is cruel.
 
hodgy said:
I think your proposed treatment of cats (keeping them locked up) is cruel.
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One would assume that you think likewise of "locking up" all animals.

Is that a safe assumption to make?

Is it your opinion that restricting the range of any animal cruel?
 
Dessi said:
If you want to make an argument for hunting, please don't pretend it has the slightest connection to "compassion killing" or animal welfare. I've NEVER met a hunter who wasn't absolutely hostile to the idea of animal rights.
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I am a hunter and I also hate cruelty to animals. I don't usually (though I have sometimes) kill for compassion - I kill for sport. I only eat wild or free-range produce (where possible) since I don't like livestock factory farming. I don't believe in such a thing as 'animal rights' but that doesn't mean that I and other people like me have no empathy or compassion towards animals.

I would not try to argue that the reason we hunt is to promote animal welfare, however, it certainly is a by-product of our activity. We actively manage the grounds, discouraging (and sometimes shooting) predators which has the effect of promoting a rich diversity of wildlife (most of which we do not shoot).
 
citizenzen said:
One would assume that you think likewise of "locking up" all animals.

Is that a safe assumption to make?

Is it your opinion that restricting the range of any animal cruel?
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I think there is a spectrum (of locking-up effect upon animals) and I don't pretend to be an expert on animal psychology so I'll admit that I could be wrong and cats could be perfectly fine locked up. I'll defer to anyone that presents evidence to the contrary but my default position (based on my observation of cat behaviour over the years) is that (at least some) cats are stressed if they are not allowed outdoors - I can empathise - I would be stressed if I was not allowed outdoors.... I want my cats to have freedom and I think they enjoy it and would be distressed without it.

For all other animals, I think its a matter of degree and the general nature of the animal. I don't like to see birds in cages but I think a wormarium (or whatever such a thing is properly called) is probably not a problem for its inhabitants.
 
hodgy said:
I think there is a spectrum (of locking-up effect upon animals) and I don't pretend to be an expert on animal psychology so I'll admit that I could be wrong and cats could be perfectly fine locked up. I'll defer to anyone that presents evidence to the contrary but my default position (based on my observation of cat behaviour over the years) is that (at least some) cats are stressed if they are not allowed outdoors - I can empathise - I would be stressed if I was not allowed outdoors.... I want my cats to have freedom and I think they enjoy it and would be distressed without it.

For all other animals, I think its a matter of degree and the general nature of the animal. I don't like to see birds in cages but I think a wormarium (or whatever such a thing is properly called) is probably not a problem for its inhabitants.
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Every vet I know suggests keeping cats indoors. Cat rescues make indoor only a requirement before adopting. Do you have any evidence that cats are not happy indoors? My cats have been inside the house for a decade and have been perfectly happy.
 
Unabogie said:
http://cats.about.com/od/indoorsvsoutdoors/tp/keepindoors.htm
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My wife is a big advocate of keeping cats indoors for those very reasons.

One cat that we do let outside during the day get's into fights with neighbor cats regularly. He is fixed, but has a very aggressive personality. We live on a quiet cul de sac, but I wouldn't be surprised to find him injured or killed by a car one day.

His life will almost certainly be shortened by his outdoor forays.
 
Unabogie said:
Every vet I know suggests keeping cats indoors.
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I won't dispute this as I just don't know how true it is - any vets care to comment? The RSPCA has this to say on it (not that I agree with everything the RSPCA says)...


We would not recommend keeping a cat that is used to going outside, as an ‘indoor-only cat’, unless it is for health reasons... For an active animal like the cat, an indoor environment can become predictable and boring, and can lead to stress, inactivity and obesity. So it’s important that you provide your cat with everything it needs.


Cat rescues make indoor only a requirement before adopting.
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They don't here (or at last, not all do).

Do you have any evidence that cats are not happy indoors? My cats have been inside the house for a decade and have been perfectly happy.
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I suspect that some are and some aren't but no - I do not have evidence other than every cat I have ever owned has wanted to go outside. I suppose that does not mean that they couldn't be trained to be happy indoors but it still seems a bit cruel to me.
 
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