Oh. I used "deterministic" to mean "once started cause events to follow". Perhaps this is the wrong word. My bad.
Variation on Determination vs Free Will
- Thread starter Iacchus
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Oh. I used "deterministic" to mean "once started cause events to follow". Perhaps this is the wrong word. My bad.
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
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And it may well be that using the word deterministic for that is okay. Mostly I was just giving you trouble.
~~ Paul
~~ Paul
All good mate. And of course, if you were to read the orginal post, you would understand that I was a compatibilist. Yeah, and just think, if God's existence was based upon free will, and yet, the only way that could be maintained is through determinism, that would explain how (according to Biblical sources) God could endow man with free will, and yet still project ahead of time in full detail, how man will behave.
For all intents and purposes the random events are also 'deterministic in themselves' since they cannot be prevented from happening. We cannot explain their origin but then neither can we ultimately explain the origin of anything. There will forever be another question that it is possible to ask.
Futhermore, if time is actually just a dimension like any other and it is logically possible to conceive of past, present and future states coexisting in some universal universe then what to us are apparently random events are in fact just the edges of fixed artifacts that together comprise the big model of existence. In this model nothing moves, nothing changes, the model describes everything at all times and in all directions.
As I said in a previous post, such a concept is a reinforcement of determinism rather than a challenge to it. If you could see the model you would be able to describe all of the apparently random events that would happen when traversing a given dimension (e.g. time).
Interestingly, we can construct a simple model universe that only has 3 dimensions and by choosing one dimension to act in a manner similar to the way that we (humans) percieve time we can traverse that arbitrary dimension and percieve 'random' events in our 'present' 2 dimensions.
Belz...
Fiend God
I still don't know what that means... free will ?
How could you make a decision completely independent from various physical factors ? How could you make a different decision in precisely the same circumstances ? Randomness ? That's not WILL.
If nothing was determined, what would free will act upon? It would be sort of like building a house, versus the life of those who dwelt inside of the house. The structure of the house (determinism) exists for the express use of the occupants (free will) that dwell inside.
Belz...
Fiend God
That doesn't even make sense, because you are (again) assuming some sort of divinity to the mind.
But even so, what gives the spirit free will ? What allows you to make decisions that are not either random or predetermined ?
Well, if you weren't self-aware at the moment you make a decision, what would be the point? There would be no choice, right?
Belz...
Fiend God
You are purposely dodging, Iacchus. ASSUMING we have a self-aware, spiritual soul, how can it have free will, since its decisions are either influenced by predetermined factors, or by random quantum fluctuations. Please answer instead of asking another question.
In some arguments Iaachus has come dangerously close to applying logic. One can almost sense the metaphysical panic as he painfully steers away from the obvious when he realises what is afoot. To be honest, I am surprised you all give him so much attention, perhaps you just love to bait the bull (bull is a very apt word in this case).
What, dangerous in the sense that you might actually have to consider changing your views?
Yes, I am arguing from the standpoint that a spiritual world does exist.
As I have suggested in the original post, free will is what predominates on the other side of this quantum fluctuation thingee and, that determinism predominates on this side of the quantum fluctuation thingee. And by means of this, two separate (but distinctly opposite) worlds are maintained ... more at "reciprocal."
Belz...
Fiend God
That proves to be your greatest downfall. In arguing with your conclusion already accepted as true, you only provide circular reasoning. In order to prove your point, you'd have to argue starting from the default position, not the position of your claim.
That would certainly be an interesting subject, Iacchus. But only IF you were able to define "free will" in a practical way.
Sometimes you appear to follow a logical progression only to veer suddenly and inexplicably away from it with some odd statement. So - dangerous in the sense that you might actually have to change your views.
Determinism is not dependent on the material world, its foundation is logic. Suppose the dead me is floating around in the ether considering whether to manifest through medium A (say James VDP) or medium B (say Derrick Acorah). If I choose Dezza we can ask - why did Hodgy choose to manifest through Dezza? The decision could either be caused (e.g. Dezza was recommended to me by my spirit mate down the spirit pub) or random - there is logically no more free will in heaven than there is upon earth.
Hmmm - there you go again, still, that bird in the background graphic is quite tasty (don't know what she has to do with the subject mater though).That would be tear-a-bull now wouldn't it?