Vanunu arrested for "passing on classified documents"

TillEulenspiegel said:
Well there Ya have it. Rationalizations and justifications, may I remind You of You own words?

It's a little unclear, but surely you're not addressing me after I clearly said, "Pollard is guilty" and "I'm not losing any sleep over his imprisonment."

Or did you fail to notice that I gave the pro-Pollard arguments and then refuted them?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

geni said:
Why should I have any objections to someone spilling the beans on another countries nuclear program?

That's up to you.

However, you do recognize the rights of any state to criminalize espionage, don't you?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

Mycroft said:
That's up to you.


However, you do recognize the rights of any state to criminalize espionage, don't you?

Within certian limits yes.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

geni said:
Within certian limits yes.

And what would those limits be?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber t

Mycroft said:
And what would those limits be?

Oh the usal one about the death penaltly not being acceptable no curel and unusal punishments and no breaking of international law to obtain them.
 
geni said:
Why should I have any objections to someone spilling the beans on another countries nuclear program?
Because he broke laws doing it. Because his actions were traitorous actions. Those silly little things.

geni said:
So a load of emotive language. Got any evidence to back it up?
Sure, you're defending a traitor. So logic dictates that if you favour Israeli traitors over the security of Israel's people the probability that you like Israel more than Israeli traitors is very low. If you were to defend an British traitor over British national security I would deduct the same.

Originally posted by demon
Where do the "self hating jews" fit into your world view? Are you of the Mycroft theory that they are suffering from some sort of psychological disorder? There`s a lot of it about these days you know
Speaking of psychological disorders....

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I am glad you agree that Israel is wrong in this case. A big day for all of us, thank you.....You could love Israel and hate what it is doing to people. The two are not mutually exclusive.
So now Vanunu is the poster boy for Israeli injustice...before Mr. Manafizzle made him out to be the poster boy for freedom of speech and the poster boy for Israel's violation of international treaties - which he ran away from once confronted with the documentation by Rob Lister.

Free Vanunu! Free Vanunu!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

zenith-nadir said:
Priceless. :D
Of which you shall provide no documentation to support...but it has to be true! Amnesty International said so...;)
So now Vanunu represents violations of international treaties a few short posts ago he represented the freedom of speech...Hahahahahaha

People usually feel embarassed when they laugh at their own jokes, then look around, and realise no one is laughing with them.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

rikzilla said:
Julius and Ethel would not agree....

Vanunu is lucky to be alive. Or maybe not, he seems determined to martyr himself. Instead he just keeps landing in the hoosegow.

-z

The two cases are completely different. Vanunu was not trying to help any Israeli enemies by selling or giving away weapons technology secrets. He was trying to stop nuclear proliferation, one of the major problems the world faces today.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

a_unique_person said:
People usually feel embarassed when they laugh at their own jokes, then look around, and realise no one is laughing with them.
I don't care if people laugh with me, I don't even care if they agree with me, life is not a popularity contest. I just like lampooning the bottomless hypocrisy that comes out of you and Mr. Manafizzle.
a_unique_person said:
Vanunu was not trying to help any Israeli enemies by selling or giving away weapons technology secrets. He was trying to stop nuclear proliferation, one of the major problems the world faces today.
So now Vanunu is the poster boy for nuclear proliferation.

:dl:

Free Vanunu! Free Vanunu!
 
zenith-nadir said:
Because he broke laws doing it. Because his actions were traitorous actions. Those silly little things.

So what? If a defector came over tomarrow and told us all about the NK nulcear program I wouln not care one iota that they had broken laws and carried out traitorous actions.

Sure, you're defending a traitor. So logic dictates that if you favour Israeli traitors over the security of Israel's people the probability that you like Israel more than Israeli traitors is very low. If you were to defend an British traitor over British national security I would deduct the same.

Depends on what the person revealed. If say they revealed that the uk goverment had been spying on french citerzens and killing those who voted for le pen then I would have no objection to thier actions.

Incerdently how did Vanunu damage Israel's national security?
 
geni said:
So what? If a defector came over tomarrow and told us all about the NK nulcear program I wouln not care one iota that they had broken laws and carried out traitorous actions.
Vanunu spilled state secrets, that is treason. Not only did he violate his confidentiality agreements he violated the law by going public. Then, on top of all that, he violated the terms of his parole upon release.

Every country has the right to require it's citizens to adhere to it's laws. Since you do agree with that, and consider Israel on the same level as North Korea I am guessing that traitors are "ok" as long as they come from North Korea OR Israel. But I bet you would differ if they came from the UK. Call it a hunch.

geni said:
Incerdently how did Vanunu damage Israel's national security?
If you really have to ask that question I then have to ask do you know anything about Vanunu or the case that is the topic of this thread.
 
zenith-nadir said:
Vanunu spilled state secrets, that is treason. Not only did he violate his confidentiality agreements he violated the law by going public. Then, on top of all that, he violated the terms of his parole upon release.

Every country has the right to require it's citizens to adhere to it's laws. Since you do agree with that, and consider Israel on the same level as North Korea I am guessing that traitors are "ok" as long as they come from North Korea OR Israel. But I bet you would differ if they came from the UK. Call it a hunch.

If you really have to ask that question I then have to ask do you know anything about Vanunu or the case that is the topic of this thread.

What secret, that Israel is not a party to the nuclear non proliferation treaty?
 
a_unique_person said:
What secret, that Israel is not a party to the nuclear non proliferation treaty?
Vanunu broke Israeli law and violated his parole. If Israel doesn't have the right to require it's citizens to follow the law then just say it a_u_p. That is what this case is about. It is about one guy who broke the law, spilled state secrets and then didn't learn his lesson after 18 years in prison and broke the terms of his parole upon release. To me that is a dumb guy not a hero.

You on the other hand would kill your own mother if it somehow made Israel look bad. And that is why you, Mr. Manafizzle and Geni are using everything you have to make Vanunu the poster boy for the "freedom of speech" to "non proliferation treaties" to "civil rights".
 
zenith-nadir said:
Vanunu spilled state secrets, that is treason. Not only did he violate his confidentiality agreements he violated the law by going public. Then, on top of all that, he violated the terms of his parole upon release.

Every country has the right to require it's citizens to adhere to it's laws. Since you do agree with that, and consider Israel on the same level as North Korea I am guessing that traitors are "ok" as long as they come from North Korea OR Israel. But I bet you would differ if they came from the UK. Call it a hunch.

Depends what they revealed. If they revealed that my country was doing something that is shouldn't be I would not have a probelm.

Israel is not in NATO or the EU. As such I don't care that much about who betrays it.

If you really have to ask that question I then have to ask do you know anything about Vanunu or the case that is the topic of this thread.


Read a book about nuclear weapon published pre Vanunu. Every one I have read listed Israel as a nuclear power. The only significant mistake was in the number of weapons.
 
As usual, I disagree with everyone. Both the situation and the man are more complex than either side will admit. It is plain that Vanunu had mixed motives for his actions – neither wholly pure nor wholly base. Anyone who regards him as either a hero or a traitor is over-simplifying.

Now, to be honest, I find it hard to sympathise with a renegade Jew, and for that reason I don’t particularly care what happens to him. But I do think his treatment by the Israeli authorities is both unjustifiable and politically misguided. The opportunity was there to show some generosity and to demonstrate freedom and democracy in action. Instead, the thing comes across as yet another example of arrogant Israeli indifference to the opinion of the rest of the world.

In the Jewish press Vanunu is generally portrayed as a villain, and the pretence is kept up that he might have information that is militarily and not merely politically dangerous. This is necessary in order to justify the continued restrictions on his freedom. But it is surely obvious that this claim is just plain boiling absurd (actually, no-one here has said any different, so I won’t waste my time arguing that point until they do).


z-n: do you really believe that Vanunu is a security risk in a sense that should deny him protection under Clause 3 of Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights?


From a_u_p:
Vanunu was not trying to help any Israeli enemies by selling or giving away weapons technology secrets. He was trying to stop nuclear proliferation, one of the major problems the world faces today.
That is being more charitable than he really deserves. I do think that he was partly (though not primarily) motivated by a hatred of his country, and that his rejection of Judaism implied a rejection of Israel (which he has now made explicit).


z-n, Mycroft: I wonder what you would think about, for example, an Iranian scientist who believed that his country’s secret nuclear weapons program posed a terrible danger to Middle East stability and decided to tell the world about it (at great personal risk).

Honest answer?
 
Originally posted by Lucky
z-n, Mycroft: I wonder what you would think about, for example, an Iranian scientist who believed that his country’s secret nuclear weapons program posed a terrible danger to Middle East stability and decided to tell the world about it (at great personal risk).

Honest answer?

Honest answer:

Iran has a right to keep state secrets. Iran has a right to have laws against espionage and treason. If Iran were to capture an Iranian scientist who had betrayed Iran by revealing state secrets, I would expect Iran to enact that unique Iranian justice it's know throughout the world for.

At the same time, I would cheer that scientist and hope he gets away with it. Just because I respect the rights of Iran to have state secrets doesn’t mean I have to root for the in keeping those secrets.

If someone supports Vanunu because they’re against nuclear weapons, I can understand that point of view even if I don’t share it. They should do as the supporters of Pollard do, voice their opinion in support of clemency. It’s the idiots who claim he’s not guilty when he so obviously is that I’m against.
 

Back
Top Bottom