Vanunu arrested for "passing on classified documents"

[Mr Manifesto]

Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

So name all the democracies in the world where the freedom of speech extends to divulging state secrets.

Okay, maybe naming all of them is a bit too much. Can you name one?

What state secret could Vanunu possibly know that would be the slightest interest to anyone? Or is Israel too stupid to change the locks when someone's broken in?

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

So now it's about the freedom of speech is it? The guy violated the terms of his parol... he is not some martyr for the freedom of speech in Israel.

No, he just blew the whistle on a nuclear arms project. As Amnesty International points out, this was done in secret, with no consultation with the citizens of Israel. Frankly, it's hard to see why he was even put in jail in the first place.

When he was released, the draconian parole conditions were in violation of Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which, as AA points out again, Israel has ratified. I know you aren't bothered about violations of international treaties, but if you weren't the complete dimwit that you are, you would.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

Iraq or at least the the US goverment (and quite a lot of the rest of the international community) felt that it should.

Freedom of speech in Iraq was such that Saddam tolerated divulging of state secrets?

Is that what you're saying?

Or are you talking about occupied Iraq?

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

Freedom of speech in Iraq was such that Saddam tolerated divulging of state secrets?

Is that what you're saying?

Or are you talking about occupied Iraq?

Before the war the US seemed to be pretty detirmened that varius scientist devulge Iraqs state secreats (of course they did which was rather the problem).

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

Before the war the US seemed to be pretty detirmened that varius scientist devulge Iraqs state secreats (of course they did which was rather the problem).

And how did Saddam's government feel about that?

Do I need to point out the difference between one state wanting another states secrets and one state wanting to keep its secrets?

If any citizen divulges state secrets, he can be a hero to those he gives them to and still be a criminal to the nation he betrays. The nation he betrays is not required to treat him any different from any other criminal just because his decision is popular elsewhere.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

I assume that would include say. Jonathan Pollard?

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9810/23/pollard.release.01/

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

No, he just blew the whistle on a nuclear arms project. As Amnesty International points out....

Priceless.

When he was released, the draconian parole conditions were in violation of Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which, as AA points out again, Israel has ratified.

Of which you shall provide no documentation to support...but it has to be true! Amnesty International said so...

I know you aren't bothered about violations of international treaties, but if you weren't the complete dimwit that you are, you would.

So now Vanunu represents violations of international treaties a few short posts ago he represented the freedom of speech...Hahahahahaha

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

And how did Saddam's government feel about that?

We don't know. No one cared (and rightly so).

Do I need to point out the difference between one state wanting another states secrets and one state wanting to keep its secrets?

I was mearly demonstrating that for some reason it is no longer considered accepterble for states to defend thier state secrets under all cercemstances

If any citizen divulges state secrets, he can be a hero to those he gives them to and still be a criminal to the nation he betrays. The nation he betrays is not required to treat him any different from any other criminal just because his decision is popular elsewhere.

But they are treating him differently to other criminals.

 

[Rob Lister]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

When he was released, the draconian parole conditions were in violation of Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which, as AA points out again, Israel has ratified.

Opinions vary but I don't see how anyone can hold that opinion. To witt:

Article 12 General comment on its implementation

1. Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.

2. Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.

3. The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.

Emphisis, of course, mine.

I really don't see how any rational person can view the terms of his probation as a violation this article.

But then again, I can't see how any sane person would be defending him.

Perhaps it is I that is be are am insane.

If I were king I'd have had him flogged, skinned, and dipped in salt.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

But they are treating him differently to other criminals.

Why you and Mr. Manafizzle are "hooking your wagons" to Vanunu can only be explained by your obvious bias towards Israel. That is the only reason one would defend a guy who, A) broke the law B) spilled state secrets and C) broke the terms of his parole as soon as he was released from jail.

Maybe the guy isn't that bright and just has an axe to grind. I prefer that explanation than some giant Israeli conspiracy to violate the freedom of speech, international treaties and Mr. Vanunu's civil rights.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

I really don't see how any rational person can view the terms of his probation as a violation this article. But then again, I can't see how any sane person would be defending him.

Only a person who hates Israel more than they hate traitors who spill state secrets would defend him.

 

[Mycroft]

I assume that would include say. Jonathan Pollard?

The pro-Pollard arguments are:

1) He only did what the State Department should have done anyway under their treaty obligations to share pertinent intelligence information with Israel.

2) His punishment was far greater than other people convicted of similar crimes.

As far as the first, it may be true, but that wasn’t his call to make. He’s guilty.

As far as the second, it may be true, but I’m not losing any sleep over it. Our criminal justice system is full of examples where one person gets it severely while another gets a slap on the wrist. At the same time, it wouldn’t upset me if someone reviewed his case and shortened his sentence either.

Overall, I don't see the two cases as being very similar.

 

[demon]

I assume they want to break his spirit and stop him campaigning for nuclear disarmament.
Strange really since Israel doesn`t even have nuclear weapons

Now Iran on the other hand, we better go bomb them quick for just thinking about them. Saddam was thinking about WMD too, just look what happened to him!

Way to go Israel, don`t even think of getting yourself a nuke!

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Well there Ya have it. Rationalizations and justifications, may I remind You of You own words?

" any citizen (who ) divulges state secrets, he can be a hero to those he gives them to and still be a criminal to the nation he betrays. The nation he betrays is not required to treat him any different from any other criminal just because his decision is popular elsewhere."

Hum doesn't seem to be any leeway there . Any attempt toward incrimmentalism on Your part would amount to hypocrisy.

The fact that nation x is an Ally doesn't absolve the criminal from the clear cut case which You most poignantly opined.

In my opinion both should put against a wall and shot. That's the traditional treatment for traitors.

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

Why you and Mr. Manafizzle are "hooking your wagons" to Vanunu can only be explained by your obvious bias towards Israel. That is the only reason one would defend a guy who, A) broke the law B) spilled state secrets and C) broke the terms of his parole as soon as he was released from jail.

Maybe the guy isn't that bright and just has an axe to grind. I prefer that explanation than some giant Israeli conspiracy to violate the freedom of speech, international treaties and Mr. Vanunu's civil rights.

Why should I have any objections to someone spilling the beans on another countries nuclear program?

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

Only a person who hates Israel more than they hate traitors who spill state secrets would defend him.

So a load of emotive language. Got any evidence to back it up?

 

[demon]

ZN:
"Only a person who hates Israel more than they hate traitors who spill state secrets would defend him."

Lot of hate there ZN, guess that goes for the "self hating jews" that support him too eh?
Where do the "self hating jews" fit into your world view? Are you of the Mycroft theory that they are suffering from some sort of psychological disorder? There`s a lot of it about these days you know.

 

[a_unique_person]

In Israel people get arrested. In the West Bank and Gaza they don't get lawyers OR a trial. They are shot dead where they stand.
Damn those horrible horrible Israelis for oppressing poor old Vanunu. Thank goodness the JREF morality police - Demon and Mr. Manafizzle - are here to expose Israel's war crimes.

I am glad you agree that Israel is wrong in this case. A big day for all of us, thank you.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They don't come much dumber than you

Only a person who hates Israel more than they hate traitors who spill state secrets would defend him.

You could love Israel and hate what it is doing to people. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Mycroft]

Lot of hate there ZN, guess that goes for the "self hating jews" that support him too eh?
Where do the "self hating jews" fit into your world view? Are you of the Mycroft theory that they are suffering from some sort of psychological disorder? There`s a lot of it about these days you know.

What's that "Mycroft theory" again?