Valerin, does it work?

[ponderingturtle]

try again

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/89015981/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

if not, it's a research article in
Phytotherapy Research
Volume 16 Issue 1, Pages 23 - 27
Published Online: 23 Jan 2002

hope link works this time. Tauri.

Still getting a session cookie error.

 

[23_Tauri]

Still getting a session cookie error.

I just linked to the page direct from here, don't know why you guys are getting errors. Hope you can find it via google now anyway.

 

[fls]

It is and reduction in blood pressure is a measurable effect of valerian, just as increased blood pressure is a measurable effect of caffeine.

Well, you were the one who accused me of dismissing subjective perceptions in favour of measurable effects on the human body (which isn't true anyway - all I ask for is that a difference can be found between placebo and active treatment). And here you go defending the subjective effects of caffeine by focussing on measurable effects on the body.

Linda

 

[fls]

That site information is not evaluated by the Mayo Clinic. Rather, it comes from the "Natural Standard" site and is unreliable. The same is true for the NIH site on herbs.

I would say that it is overly generous, rather than unreliable. In particular, if they give it a grade C, you know that there is essentially no evidence for it.

I did mention that the information I linked to was from Natural Standard. I have just found that it is easier to get to that info through the NIH, rather than going directly to Natural Standard (of course, I could be doing it wrong).

Linda

 

[23_Tauri]

Well, you were the one who accused me of dismissing subjective perceptions in favour of measurable effects on the human body (which isn't true anyway - all I ask for is that a difference can be found between placebo and active treatment). And here you go defending the subjective effects of caffeine by focussing on measurable effects on the body.

Linda

The point I was attempting to make by posting the research article was only that valerian has measurable, physiological effects in the same way as caffeine. If you are going to say that increased heart rate due to caffeine is measurable, and therefore a valid indicator of efficacy, then surely by the same token you accept that valerian has an effect because it has been shown to lower HR.

I wasn't dismissing your point about the perceptual subjectivity of effects, indeed I agreed with you here. My only caveat was regarding the intensity of the effect. IMO, the stronger and more discernible the effect, the less likely that it's going to be "all in the mind".

I think this needs to be separated from the point being made that thoughts affect HR or, even more deliberately, that the mind can consciously control heart rate, taking it out of the realms of the purely autonomic nervous system.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I just linked to the page direct from here, don't know why you guys are getting errors. Hope you can find it via google now anyway.

Probably because you have some cookie needed to access the page.

Clear your cookies and click on your link.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The point I was attempting to make by posting the research article was only that valerian has measurable, physiological effects in the same way as caffeine. If you are going to say that increased heart rate due to caffeine is measurable, and therefore a valid indicator of efficacy, then surely by the same token you accept that valerian has an effect because it has been shown to lower HR.

Then again if I give a nice double blind placebo controlled trial of caffeine you think people will not find it keeps them up? Such trials are not supporting valerian, even if it does have some effect on blood pressure.

 

[fls]

The point I was attempting to make by posting the research article was only that valerian has measurable, physiological effects in the same way as caffeine. If you are going to say that increased heart rate due to caffeine is measurable, and therefore a valid indicator of efficacy, then surely by the same token you accept that valerian has an effect because it has been shown to lower HR.

But of course, I would never say that. Outcomes-based research means that you measure the very thing you are interested in, not some possibly unrelated but more objective or easier to obtain measurement. Why would anyone measure heart rate if what they were interested in was sleep?

Linda