Valerin, does it work?

[fls]

Thanks for that post Andrew W. I didn’t know if the reason my post with my testimony had been ignored was because personal experience (without supporting evidence except “take my word for it”) is frowned upon on JREF, but nevertheless I do appreciate reading the scientific studies linked here. I like the snake oil chart too.

The reason I ignored your post is simply because your testimony is unable to provide useful information because of the nature of insomnia. Pretty much any therapy used for insomnia has the potential to look useful, regardless of whether or not it has any effect at all. The ability to fall asleep and stay asleep waxes and wanes, and the tendency will be for people to try something when it waxes, not when it wanes. If you take something when your symptoms are at their worst, it is likely to be followed by a period when your symptoms are better. And our inclination is to attribute it to whatever it was that we took.

The other thing that happens is that there are numerous OTC and prescription sleep aids to try. And we keep trying stuff until our sleep gets better. Then whatever it was that we just happened to take before it got better gets the credit. Whether or not Valerian works depends upon whether or not you tried it first or you tried it last.

Because anything has the potential to look useful under those circumstances, testimony about something that appeared to look useful isn't able to distinguish between something which is effective and something which is ineffective.

Linda

 

[23_Tauri]

The reason I ignored your post is simply because your testimony is unable to provide useful information because of the nature of insomnia. Pretty much any therapy used for insomnia has the potential to look useful, regardless of whether or not it has any effect at all. The ability to fall asleep and stay asleep waxes and wanes, and the tendency will be for people to try something when it waxes, not when it wanes. If you take something when your symptoms are at their worst, it is likely to be followed by a period when your symptoms are better. And our inclination is to attribute it to whatever it was that we took.

The other thing that happens is that there are numerous OTC and prescription sleep aids to try. And we keep trying stuff until our sleep gets better. Then whatever it was that we just happened to take before it got better gets the credit. Whether or not Valerian works depends upon whether or not you tried it first or you tried it last.

Because anything has the potential to look useful under those circumstances, testimony about something that appeared to look useful isn't able to distinguish between something which is effective and something which is ineffective.

Linda

Hi Linda. I see the point you are making, but I think it would only be relevant where we are discussing a medicine that takes time (days, weeks) to build up to an effective level in the body before having a discernible effect. Valerian is pretty immediate. Within 30 minutes to 2 hours I feel mentally slow and physically heavy. This may or not be followed by falling asleep rapidly (in the morning, not remembering falling asleep is common). It's efficacy is apparent straight away. The effects last a few hours and wear off within 2-3 hours of waking. One would not mistake this for a drug one tried last week, or merely the sleep cycle improving, which would happen over a longer time span.

 

[fls]

Hi Linda. I see the point you are making, but I think it would only be relevant where we are discussing a medicine that takes time (days, weeks) to build up to an effective level in the body before having a discernible effect. Valerian is pretty immediate. Within 30 minutes to 2 hours I feel mentally slow and physically heavy. This may or not be followed by falling asleep rapidly (in the morning, not remembering falling asleep is common). It's efficacy is apparent straight away. The effects last a few hours and wear off within 2-3 hours of waking. One would not mistake this for a drug one tried last week, or merely the sleep cycle improving, which would happen over a longer time span.

"Mentally slow", "physically heavy" are perceptions that are strongly influenced by suggestion. Also influenced by suggestion are your recollections of whether or not you fell asleep easily or woke up during the night.

Linda

 

[23_Tauri]

"Mentally slow", "physically heavy" are perceptions that are strongly influenced by suggestion. Also influenced by suggestion are your recollections of whether or not you fell asleep easily or woke up during the night.

Linda

Theoretically yes, but as human beings I think we are all capable of sufficient awareness to know when something is affecting us. Surely you've lived enough to know this for yourself? I know you don't mean to be so, but the tone of your post could be construed as patronising, i.e. "I have no confidence in your ability to be in touch with your own mind and body". No offence, but can you appreciate that that is how you came over? Do you always assume that if science can't measure an effect on the human body with a little device then it's likely to be mere 'suggestion'.

Do you drink coffee? Do you think its stimulant effects on your mind and body are just the consequence of suggestion?

 

[Miss_Kitt]

My favorite site for looking at 'herbal medicine' stuff is the Mayo Clinic's site. They haven't got a full entry for valerian, but they do have one for the 'alternative' sleep aid I have occasionally used:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/melatonin/NS_patient-melatonin/DSECTION=evidence

Mayo's clear rating scale for different suggested uses and their inclusion of possible side-effects is one of the reasons I like using them.

FWIW, I have only taken melatonin a few times when I was having trouble falling asleep; it seemed to work. Placebo effect is of course possible; but who cares if that's why it works? Sleep issues are particularly impacted by suggestion, so why not go with something that does no harm and might help? Placebo effect is, by definition, something having an effect that is not chemically based--if it has the desired consequence, so much the better.

Melatonin is, at least in the US, available in your local pharmacy without prescription and inexpensively, in tablet form. And it has no nasty smell or taste to deal with.

Good luck on resolving your sleeping issues, MK

 

[fls]

Theoretically yes, but as human beings I think we are all capable of sufficient awareness to know when something is affecting us. Surely you've lived enough to know this for yourself?

I've lived enough to know that it feels like I know when something is affecting me. But I also know that I feel this way when something isn't affecting me, I only think that it is.

I know you don't mean to be so, but the tone of your post could be construed as patronising, i.e. "I have no confidence in your ability to be in touch with your own mind and body". No offence, but can you appreciate that that is how you came over?

I don't actually have confidence in the veracity of my subjective perceptions. But it seems that this is unusual, so I can see that the suggestion would appear patronizing to someone who doesn't have reason to doubt. In that case, can you tell me what sort of process led you to discover that the veracity of your subjective perceptions can be trusted? This would be very useful information (we could get rid of placebo control groups, for one).

Do you always assume that if science can't measure an effect on the human body with a little device then it's likely to be mere 'suggestion'.

I'm just pointing out that a pharmacologic effect and suggestion can alter subjective perceptions. That a subjective perception was altered doesn't tell someone which was the cause and to what extent.

Do you drink coffee? Do you think its stimulant effects on your mind and body are just the consequence of suggestion?

It could be, couldn't it?

Linda

 

[ponderingturtle]

I bought some unprocessed valerian root at a health food store several years ago, with the idea of making a tea out of it.

I couldn't get past the dirty socks odour of the stuff. Apparently, the Vikings found that flavour quite enjoyable, and drank it for pleasure.

Hey that is the part of the world that rotten fish is a delicacy.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Theoretically yes, but as human beings I think we are all capable of sufficient awareness to know when something is affecting us.

Science disagrees with you.

Surely you've lived enough to know this for yourself? I know you don't mean to be so, but the tone of your post could be construed as patronising, i.e. "I have no confidence in your ability to be in touch with your own mind and body".

The thing is that it isn't you. She would or at least should discount her own personal experiences in the same way she is disregarding yours. Personal experience in this area is not a useful way to determine what is effective.

Do you think that people who take homeopathic sleep aids don't use all the same arguments or that we think that they are worse at determining what is happening in their bodies?

Do you drink coffee? Do you think its stimulant effects on your mind and body are just the consequence of suggestion?

Dilute it enough and it becomes a sleep aid just as effective as Valerian. Basic homeopathic medicine there.

 

[23_Tauri]

I don't actually have confidence in the veracity of my subjective perceptions. But it seems that this is unusual, so I can see that the suggestion would appear patronizing to someone who doesn't have reason to doubt. In that case, can you tell me what sort of process led you to discover that the veracity of your subjective perceptions can be trusted? This would be very useful information (we could get rid of placebo control groups, for one).

Hi Linda.
I wouldn’t say that I don’t doubt the veracity of my subjective perceptions and I’m very aware of how strong is the power of suggestion. I can think of several examples where I’ve been told I’ll ‘feel’ something, then thought I did, only to think later that it was merely suggestion. Crystals is a nice woo example that comes to mind, but I have also had this experience with prescription drugs.

To make an obvious point, I think it comes down to the intensity of the effect. If an effect is only barely discernible then yes it could easily be put down to suggestion. If I were to drink several shots of whisky in quick succession I would not for one second put result down to me just imagining I was drunk. I don’t drink, so I think we can be certain I would be legless.

I'm just pointing out that a pharmacologic effect and suggestion can alter subjective perceptions. That a subjective perception was altered doesn't tell someone which was the cause and to what extent.

Indeed, and the resultant effect is likely to be a mixture of the two.

Do you drink coffee? Do you think its stimulant effects on your mind and body are just the consequence of suggestion?

It could be, couldn't it?

Could it? I don’t think many people would seriously consider that it was. Can a strong physiological response, including raised heart rate and blood pressure, be put down to mere suggestion?

 

[HypnoPsi]

Ranks High on the Snake Oil chart.

Er... This statement makes it sound like it ranks high as Snake Oil - when it actually ranks "high" on the chart in terms of evidence as somewhere between "Strong" and "Good" for both 'sleep' and 'anxiety'....

Well, at least, that's where the authors of the chart (David McCandless & Andy Perkins) put it claiming their sources as PubMed and the Cochrane review using large human blind placebo-controlled trials only according to the info at the bottom of the chart...

Other than that, my experience with it (just with standard herbal tea bags bought at the supermarket) was somewhat similar to that identified by '23 tauri' above.

Going by Andy W's post as well as tauri's follow up I'm thinking this is a case of 'wag the dog' with so many individual users of Valarian and new-agey type hobbyist herbalists offering up their opinions on the internet that the real information is becoming diluted with the touchy-feely stuff.

It might still help some people sleep though - in some situations.

~
HypnoPsi

 

[fls]

Could it? I don’t think many people would seriously consider that it was. Can a strong physiological response, including raised heart rate and blood pressure, be put down to mere suggestion?

Wouldn't that be a measureable effect on the human body?

Linda

 

[23_Tauri]

Wouldn't that be a measureable effect on the human body?

Linda

It is and reduction in blood pressure is a measurable effect of valerian, just as increased blood pressure is a measurable effect of caffeine. See 'Effect of Kava and Valerian on human physiological and psychological responses to mental stress assessed under laboratory conditions' here:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/89015981/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

At the second session (time 2 = T2) there was a significant decrease in systolic BP responsivity in both the kava and valerian groups relative to T1

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is and reduction in blood pressure is a measurable effect of valerian, just as increased blood pressure is a measurable effect of caffeine. See 'Effect of Kava and Valerian on human physiological and psychological responses to mental stress assessed under laboratory conditions' here:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/89015981/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Your link doesn't work, how do they control for white coat syndrome?

 

[JJM]

My favorite site for looking at 'herbal medicine' stuff is the Mayo Clinic's site. ...

That site information is not evaluated by the Mayo Clinic. Rather, it comes from the "Natural Standard" site and is unreliable. The same is true for the NIH site on herbs.

 

[dakotajudo]

Can a strong physiological response, including raised heart rate and blood pressure, be put down to mere suggestion?

Sometimes, just sitting in a chair, I think about competing - maybe there's an event coming up, maybe I'm watching something - and I get excited, my heart rate increases, my breathing changes.

At mere suggestion.

Practice meditation or similar rituals, I get the opposite effect.

This is why, for competitive athletes, ritual and mental preparation, both pre- and post- competition, is so important. Your mental state can have a profound effect on your physiological condition.

A lot of athletes ask about herbal supplements. In general, I tell them, if you believe it works, then it works. This, I don't see as harmful, since many if not most athletes have some kind of superstitious ritual that they know only helps them mentally.

 

[23_Tauri]

Your link doesn't work, how do they control for white coat syndrome?

try again

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/89015981/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

if not, it's a research article in
Phytotherapy Research
Volume 16 Issue 1, Pages 23 - 27
Published Online: 23 Jan 2002

hope link works this time. Tauri.

 

[23_Tauri]

Sometimes, just sitting in a chair, I think about competing - maybe there's an event coming up, maybe I'm watching something - and I get excited, my heart rate increases, my breathing changes.

At mere suggestion.

Practice meditation or similar rituals, I get the opposite effect.

I used to read sports performance websites so know that athletes experience this. Thoughts affect our heart rate all the time. Linda’s point was that the effect of caffeine on the body in terms of increased HR was measurable and therefore as I read it she seemed to be implying that this was a valid indicator of an effect that was not the result of suggestion, but something that was happening completely independently of the mind. As our minds affect our HR in many situations (e.g. watching a scary film) then can HR, as a measurable physiological response, really be used as an argument for demonstrating that something is not the result of suggestion? Not exclusively, IMO.

 

[JJM]

... if not, it's a research article in
Phytotherapy Research
Volume 16 Issue 1, Pages 23 - 27
Published Online: 23 Jan 2002

hope link works this time. Tauri.

No, it doesn't. It would really help for you to list the authors.

 

[23_Tauri]

I can't understand why it doesn't work. Here's the whole abstract, hope this helps. T.

Research Article
Effect of Kava and Valerian on human physiological and psychological responses to mental stress assessed under laboratory conditions
M. Cropley 1 *, Z. Cave 1, J. Ellis 1, R. W. Middleton 2
1Department of Psychology, School of Human Sciences, University of Surrey, Guildford GU2 7XH, UK
2Lichtwer Pharma UK Ltd, Mere Park, Dedmere Road, Marlow SL7 1FJ, UK


*Correspondence to M. Cropley, Department of Psychology, School of Human Sciences, University of Surrey, GU2 7XH, UK

Keywords
kava; valerian; mental stress testing; blood pressure; heart rate


Abstract
This study investigated whether kava or valerian could moderate the effects of psychological stress induced under laboratory conditions in a group of healthy volunteers. Fifty-four participants performed a standardized colour/word mental stress task on two occasions 1 week apart. Blood pressure (BP), heart rate (HR) and subjective ratings of pressure were assessed at rest and during the mental stress task. Following the first session (time 1 = T1), individuals took a standard dose of kava (n = 18), or valerian (n = 18) for 7 days, while the remainder acted as controls (n = 18). Differences in BP and HR from resting levels were calculated as reactions to the stress task at both time points. At the second session (time 2 = T2) there was a significant decrease in systolic BP responsivity in both the kava and valerian groups relative to T1, but there were no significant reductions in diastolic BP. Between T1 and T2, the HR reaction to mental stress was found to decline in the valerian group but not in the kava group. Individuals taking kava or valerian reported less pressure during the task at T2 relative to T1. There were no significant differences in BP, HR or subjective reports of pressure between T1 and T2 in the controls. Behavioural performance on the colour/word task did not change between the groups over the two time points. The results suggest that kava and valerian may be beneficial to health by reducing physiological reactivity during stressful situations. Copyright © 2002 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd

 

[dakotajudo]

Can a strong physiological response, including raised heart rate and blood pressure, be put down to mere suggestion?

Sometimes, just sitting in a chair, I think about competing - maybe there's an event coming up, maybe I'm watching something - and I get excited, my heart rate increases, my breathing changes.

At mere suggestion.

Practice meditation or similar rituals, I get the opposite effect.

This is why, for competitive athletes, ritual and mental preparation, both pre- and post- competition, is so important. Your mental state can have a profound effect on your physiological condition.

A lot of athletes ask about herbal supplements. In general, I tell them, if you believe it works, then it works. This, I don't see as harmful, since many if not most athletes have some kind of superstitious ritual that they know only helps them mentally.