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Vaccinia Immunization-Pros and Cons

<table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=4 bgcolor=#cc6666 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=#cc6666><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#ffffff size=1>Posted by hal:</font></td></tr><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=black size=2>Steve,
I am very tired of your willful and continued refusal to accept the rules of this forum. Once again, I do not care what your view of the law is. On the forum, you may not post entire articles.

hal
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The date in the following amendment to my post is incorrect:

amended by moderator Lisa:

This article was published at www.nejm.org on March 28, 2002

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content...ournalcode=nejm

I edited this because the entire article was cut and pasted. Please feel free it click on Steve's link to the article. Yes, it is work friendly and all that stuff.

The correct date is April 25, 2002. The correct URL is also:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content...73204617833_321&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=nejm
 
The date on the document is clearly April 25, 2003. The NIH may've released this to the NEJM in advance of publication date. The NEJM like many pubications also comes out chronologically ahead of its official publication date. However for citation purposes we have to use the publication date.
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Okay let's carefully look at both of Hoyt's statements regarding the vintage of the vaccine proposed for use in early 2003 (which didn't happen except for 38K people...not the millions proposed because they are not stupid; Hoyt would have us believe they are):


Hoyt: The first vaccine being used is from 1982. That is not thirty years old. Neither is it 50.

then he said:

Hoyt: Nope. That was the vaccine used last year, sir. You quacks fall for a duck blind every time. Bye, moron.


When you examine the statement in terms of when they stopped manufacturing vaccine, 1982, and interface that with the certain knowledge that they stopped giving it in 1972 but continued to manufacture it and no doubt gave it to a very small number of recipients who were working with smallpox in a government lab, that means that all the so-called 1982 vaccine was manufactured between 1972 and 1982. There is also the issue of the 14 million vials in an unnamed pharmaceutical company's inventory which Dr. Fauci and others acknowledge exists. The unnamed company is, without a doubt, Wyeth. Why would they keep 14 million vials in inventory some of which conceivably dates from before 1972? Out of the goodness of their heart? The games being played here, the vagueries of the information regarding stockpiles and the whole truth regarding the real batch dates of manufacture is up for grabs. Hoyt is not part of that deception but he fell for it ...... hook, line and sinker. And what makes Hoyt think they would give the newest vaccine first when we know they want to get rid of the oldest material before they tap into the newer batches?

There are more good reasons NOT to take smallpox than to take it:

1. The absence of a fresh stock of improved vaccine. Its now 2004 and not a word about the new vaccine we have heard about. They were hoping to get rid of the old stuff, even watering it down first to ostensibly make more doses. Dr Fauci points out experiments to dilute it X10, making enough for 140 million people, then another dilution, raising that number to a little over 200 million. Wouldn't that be great? immunize almost the whole country with watered down vaccine kept in storage since 1972? What a coup.

2. The extinction of any naturally occuring smallpox in the U.S. and in most if not all of the world.

3. The absence of any evidence terrorists have managed to get huge quantities of weaponized smallpox which could be used in such an attack. If any of these yo-yos even tried weaponizing or playing with it, they'd be dead. Of course rumours only it exists.

4. The fact that it can be given post exposure and still provide protection against frank disease.

5. The extensive list of contraindications including some w/life threatening side effects which the CDC itself says people
that have such side effects should not take the vaccine except in the event of a known exposure.

Hoyt can continue with his ad hominems, calling all who do not agree with the bouncer morons, idiots or quacks, but it does not change the facts where smallpox vaccine is concerned.
And if anyone thinks it is just me saying the above do Google the heck out of the topic and find out all the arguments from reputable mainstream sources re this.
 
Gee whiz Steve, you are getting a lot of attention for all the wrong reasons. The sole purpose of this thread was to bash other posters. Then you get all huffy when you break rules?

Why do you waste so much time on nonsense?
 
A quick history lesson may enlighten here on the subject of smallpox vaccine being manufactured until 1982. The U.S. stopped mass vaccinations in 1972, but there was a world-wide, decades-long campaign on at the time. The U.S. was and continues to be, an exporter of medicine, both biologic and non-biologic. In 1979, the World Health Organizaiton declared that smallpox had been eradicated from the planet. <sup>1</sup>. In 1980 the World Health Organization certified that smallpox had been eradicated from the planet. <sup>2</sup>.
 
The rest of the world got most if not all of its vaccine requirements from either the Institue Pasteur which has banches all over Europe, Africa, Asia and the Middle-East and Connaught Laboratories (of Canada) which was also a worldwide
smallpox and mfg of other vaccines as was Pasteur.

This does not change the census of the 14 million vials in storage by an unnamed "pharmaceutical company" (e.g. Wyeth-USA) or when it was manufactured.
You don't get it. We stopped vaccinating in 1972. The U.S. , meaning Wyeth, continued to produce until 1982. When Wyeth decided to get out of the business they had already amassed this stockpile. It has been admitted it was pre-1972. We don't know the batch dates of any of it. Nor do we know what the batch dates of that slated to be tried on hcws and first responders in 2003 (which didnt happen). We do know they tried to enlarge this stockpile by diluting it 10 to 1 which would vaccinate half the country without making a single vial of new vaccine.
 
SteveGrenard said:
The rest of the world got most if not all of its vaccine requirements from either the Institue Pasteur which has banches all over Europe, Africa, Asia and the Middle-East and Connaught Laboratories (of Canada) which was also a worldwide
smallpox and mfg of other vaccines as was Pasteur.
Evidence, Steve? Here's mine:
"AHP [American Home Products, now parent corporation of Wyeth]has a history of commitment to the development of innovative vaccines and to cooperation with the public health community in the distribution of those vaccines," continued Mr. Stafford. "This began in the 1960s with our development of the freeze-dried smallpox vaccine and bifurcated needle, which played major roles in WHO's successful eradication of smallpox, and continues today with our newer vaccines including our recently launched pneumococcal conjugate vaccine as well as an HIV vaccine that is in the early stages of clinical trials."
Wyeth smallpox role

This does not change the census of the 14 million vials in storage by an unnamed "pharmaceutical company" (e.g. Wyeth-USA) or when it was manufactured.
You don't get it. We stopped vaccinating in 1972. The U.S. , meaning Wyeth, continued to produce until 1982. When Wyeth decided to get out of the business they had already amassed this stockpile. It has been admitted it was pre-1972. We don't know the batch dates of any of it. Nor do we know what the batch dates of that slated to be tried on hcws and first responders in 2003 (which didnt happen). We do know they tried to enlarge this stockpile by diluting it 10 to 1 which would vaccinate half the country without making a single vial of new vaccine.
Steve, your "50 year old" vaccine suddenly became 20 years old. Now you wish to make it 30 years old because the U.S. stopped using it in 1972, ignoring the fact that Wyeth supplied Dryvax to WHO so that WHO could continue its campaign, which lasted until 1979. Somehow you think the vaccine's age condemns it. This, despite the fact that the U.S. purchase of this supply was predicated upon the vaccine being demonstrated as still effective and safe. This was done. Then trials were conducted to see if varying dilutions could continue to be effective. This was done.
 
Another one to add to the lengthening list of unanswered questions for Steve:

Why do you possibly imagine smallpox itself would be so less fatal today (you have quoted antibiotics, better health care etc as the reason why this would be), yet the complications of vaccination would be so severe (we still have all your antibiotics, ITUs, vaccinia immune globulin, cidofovir etc..... in case there were any life-threatening complications).

At least be consistent.
 
This is the kind of mixed messages we are getting from the "experts." On the one hand we are promised new improved vaccines, on the other hand people like Fauci admit to schemes to
watering down 14 million vials kept in storage since 1972. Which at a 10 to 1 dilution would supply 140 million doses or enough to vaccinate nearly half the country. Sorry, like so many others, if there is a new improved vaccine coming out, I'll wait. In the meantime, in the last year, I was consoled by the certain knowledge that if terrorists unleashed a warhead over NYC spreading smallpox I'd have anywhere from 4 to 7 days or longer (depending where in the ring I was standing at the time) to get vaccinated.

And while you challenge me personally, this is not me talking. This is mainstream organizations such as the ANA, AMA, certain non-hysterical elements within the NIH and the CDC's own guidances on the matter. I seriously doubt Hoyt is any less confused about these mixed messages and promises of a new vaccine than the rest of us but he makes believe that he is in order to support the party line (e.g. CSICOP).

On DeeTees question, Dr. Fauci's article if you read it, you would see he mentions the very promising results
certain anti-virals such as those derived from ribavirin have shown (in vitro) combatting smallpox. Secondary infections which can lead to death can also be treated with new and better antibiotics and the smallpox itself can be treated with immune globulins after it is contracted and, as has been stated repeatedly and here above, if you are exposed, you have several days or longer to get vaccinated. Add to this the fact that that smallpox is naturally extinct and that there is little to fear from the known existing stocks, this is one vaccine that has no need to be given pre-emptively on a mass basis and that includes lining up some 13 million health care workers in this country who have refused to be a party to that. So there are multiple lines of reasons not to take the stockpiled vaccine, whether you are fortuitous enough to get the last vial made in 1982 (22 years old) or the stock made sometime before and up to 1972.

If I am correct in surmising that DeeTee is saying complications of the vaccine can be treated by antibiotics, I suggest she hasn't read the CDC guidances on this. And if they could be and in some cases they may be, why should anyone expose themselves to such a risk without having a better reason to do so? : the only one is being exposed to smallpox. I have never said smallpox is any less fatal today than in the past. It carries an alleged 30% fatality rate but that is disputed. But its everyone's favorite number. What I said was that anti-virals and antibiotics are available today which can lessen that fatality rate. We dont know since we havent had ay cases to try them out on. In the meantime smallpox is not a problem because it doesn't exist in the wild and there is no confirmed threat of its being launched against us as a bioweapon.

I am amazed that nobody here, none of you skeptics, are the least bit bothered about the vagueness with which years and quantities are tossed around in articles by wide spread small pox vaccination proponents. But I guess that's what is meant by having an agenda and wearing blinders in order to support it at any cost.
 
In the meantime, in the last year, I was consoled by the certain knowledge that if terrorists unleashed a warhead over NYC spreading smallpox I'd have anywhere from 4 to 7 days or longer (depending where in the ring I was standing at the time) to get vaccinated

Assuming you know you were exposed. Assuming everyone knows there was an exposure. Apparently you failed to note the last section of the Rand report. The risk assessment graphic is key here. The Rand analysis clearly spells out the scenarios in which prior vaccination is the way to go:

o If the building attack scenario probability is > 20%, prior vaccination of health care workers will save net lives.

o If the low impact airport attack scenario probability is >0 %, prior vaccination of HCW will save net lives. If >20%, prior vaccination of the public will also save net lives.

o If the high impact airport attack scenario probability is >0%, prior vaccination of HCW will save net lives. If > 2%, prior vaccination of the public will also save net lives.
 
SteveGrenard said:

If I am correct in surmising that DeeTee is saying complications of the vaccine can be treated by antibiotics, I suggest she hasn't read the CDC guidances on this. And if they could be and in some cases they may be, why should anyone expose themselves to such a risk without having a better reason to do so? : the only one is being exposed to smallpox. I have never said smallpox is any less fatal today than in the past. It carries an alleged 30% fatality rate but that is disputed. But its everyone's favorite number. What I said was that anti-virals and antibiotics are available today which can lessen that fatality rate.

You certainly have implied smallpox would be less fatal today than in the past (mainly because of your (erroneous) insistence that death results mainly from secondary infection which would be "treatable" by antibiotics).

Yet at the same time you seem to "talk up" the small risk of potentially fatal side effects from the vaccine, conveniently (intentionally?) ignoring the fact that they could be treated with antivirals and vaccinia immune globulin, and vaccination programmes have stategies to deal with these events.
 
Deetee said:


You certainly have implied smallpox would be less fatal today than in the past (mainly because of your (erroneous) insistence that death results mainly from secondary infection which would be "treatable" by antibiotics).

Yet at the same time you seem to "talk up" the small risk of potentially fatal side effects from the vaccine, conveniently (intentionally?) ignoring the fact that they could be treated with antivirals and vaccinia immune globulin, and vaccination programmes have stategies to deal with these events.

I believe what the CDC says about smallpox vaccination in their guidance. It has a small list of those who should take it and a much longer list of those who should not and why. I have tried to explain to you the reason why not. Take em or leave em. As I suggested to strip club security officer/bouncer Hoyt, if you are so concerned about it, go get the vaccination.
 
SteveGrenard said:


I believe what the CDC says about smallpox vaccination in their guidance. It has a small list of those who should take it and a much longer list of those who should not and why. I have tried to explain to you the reason why not. Take em or leave em. As I suggested to strip club security officer/bouncer Hoyt, if you are so concerned about it, go get the vaccination.
I'm afraid that you believe your own distortions of what the CDC says in its guidance, just as you believe your own distortions of my position. Here again you totally distort CDC guidance. Steve, with nearly any medication, the list of contraindications always exceeds the list of indications. If I am "that concerned" about anything, it is the existence of a health care worker who either doesn't know this or who deceptively uses this to put a negative spin on rational guidance from the CDC.
 
This is why I have said: read the guidance and take your own counsel and if that is not good enough, or you have doubts, discuss it with your doctor. However, please don't discuss it with me here or with Bill Hoyt who professes to be a bouncer in a strip club.

The important thing is to make an informed decision if you are on the fence about this particular vaccination .... millions of health care workers were asked to do this earlier last year. Hospital workers, at least, all got a form from their epidemiology departments and a quesationnaire. The final decision was 99% would wait. You don't have to. As an individual you can do what you want.
 
SteveGrenard said:
The important thing is to make an informed decision if you are on the fence about this particular vaccination .... millions of health care workers were asked to do this earlier last year. Hospital workers, at least, all got a form from their epidemiology departments and a quesationnaire. The final decision was 99% would wait. You don't have to. As an individual you can do what you want.
Ad populem.
 
SteveGrenard said:
.... Bill Hoyt who professes to be a bouncer in a strip club. ....
Ad nauseam is right.

I have no idea what Bill Hoyt does for a living and I care less. However, it does occur to me that if he said he was a bouncer in a strip club that probably means that's the least likely thing to bet on, given the nature of the Internet.

I'm also seriously tired of Steve constantly harping on this dubious claim. Can we judge people by the quality of their arguments, maybe?

(Cue old story of Sloany teenage girl at party who announced that her father was the doorkeeper in a brothel in Bombay. When challenged on this by her deeply embarrassed parent, she replied, well, I could hardly admit you were a cabinet minister, could I?)

Rolfe.
 
SteveGrenard said:
However, please don't discuss it with me here or with Bill Hoyt who professes to be a bouncer in a strip club.

Well, that was a pathetic attempt to shoot south of the beltline.

What is says to me is that he can trounce you in the forum or in person. You're a loser either way.
 

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