Re: Re: Vaccinia Immunization-Pros and Cons
BTox said:
I only copied the pertinent section that clearly defined the number of expected fatalities as 1-2 per million, and not the "up to 52" you had claimed. I did not see an admission that you were incorrect. I also copied the DOD experience that matched the expectation as quoted above.
Just an FYI since we are striving for accuracy here the actual number as of nov 30 is 38,908.
Did you read the Dark Winter exercise referenced elsewhere? You keep claiming there is no credible threat - do you know that for a fact? Do you think it is prudent of the U.S. government to just assume that's the case and forget about it? Considering the potential global disaster that could occur if you're wrong, I think it would be negligent to not move forward with the vaccination policies recommended by CDC and implemented by the administration.
As a relevant aside, did you see the other thread here about the smallpox scabs found in a book? Don't you find that the least bit disconcerting that there are potential sources of smallpox virus around that terrorists could have access to?
The CDC clearly states "up to 52 per million potentially life threatening adverse effects" ....er, that means 52 vaccinia related events that could kill you. If this is breaucratic goobly-gook so be it. It matters little, there are more & better reasons not to take this live virus vaccine in the absence of any sane reason to do so.
1. One year ago the administration asked all US healthcare workers to get vaccinated. 99.+% of them declined. Thats 99% of 708,000 physicians, 2.6 million nurses and millions of others -- 13.5 million in all according to the BLS of the US Dept of Labor. plus or minus a few 1000s. What diff.?
Now let's carefully move this to consideration #2. Why do you think
#1 occurred?
Could it be because if the government knew of a credible threat but to protect a source, one single agent even , it didn't want to reveal its source of information? I heard poster Prester surmise that above. Classified. Public health threats are not classified. Sorry.
Thats why they start with the word "pubic." Not because Bush or Chaney or the CDC by their direction says it is so.
The CDC did not push all these health care workers to get vaccinated either.
They weakly recommended it. Hmm.......
The military have their own agenda and can't get involved in that. I discussed this in the first post of this thread.,
So consideration#3. The government will sacrifice the lives of millions of health care workers and by extension millions and millions of Americans because it won't give that unusually well informed and well advised subset of the population a credible reason to take the shot. Not one reason except
"I said so." And it's classified. I don't think so. Not good enough...
Do you honestly think that because
Hoyt and a few others here are placing their blind faith in the necessity of this, because they are ignoring the absence of a credible threat, that this will make 13.5 million people suddenly change their minds? (Hoyt, get your smallpox innoculum yet? Still waiting to hear how you fare).
How many people do you think a few 100 year- old scabs are likely to take down even if they could be weaponized. Yes, I have read all the suppositions about smallpox victims' bodies being unearthed and revisiting the plague on us. So when the scabs and the bodies become a problem, we can go get our vaccinations. Until then, I am waiting.
I suppose terrorists can start killing themselves by digging up bodies of dead people hoping some may've died from smallpox 50 to 100s of years ago and they can get some Variola before they die and put it in a warhead and explode it over Times Square. But if they do this we will know about it in three minutes, and an hour later we could start the vaccinations if we had to. It should be fun to watch the terrorists handle those infected bodies and kill themselves and their whole villages and towns in the process.
Logic dictates that unless Bush, Chaney, Rumsfeld et al have hung the American public out to dry and don't give a sh""t about us, there is no credible threat .... none, nada, nothing. Not for 54 years (last US smallpox case 1949 in Texas). One death. The last case in the world anywhere was a lapse in lab protocols involving a ventilation shaft and that was in 1978. One death, one mild case resulted. That lab is history. That there really are only two small stocks of no value in launching a major terrorist atack and they are under tight security somewhere near Washington, D.C. and in Moscow. That it is not possible to "grow" smallpox in vat sized quantities for such an attack since it doesn't replicate in the absence of live tissue cultures unlike anthrax and your name sake, botulinum, both of which are ubiquitous in the soil and can be cultured, the latter anaerobically but not that difficult and besides its the toxin what kills you. My bet on any sort of terriorist biol threat would be on agents such as these, not on the infinitely less predictable and more difficult smallpox virus. But wait: we weren't told to line up for anthrax vaccination eh? or any of the new state of the art C. botulinum vaccinations? No. We were told to go get Edw Jenner's Vaccinia vaccine, probably the NYC Health Dept strain left over from 1947, 1972 at the latest, and still stocked according to the interview above in Business Week. As skeptics, dare we say this was somebody's idea to sell off millions of vials of this stuff? Get rid of it and sell the administration a bill of goods in order to do so? I don't know.
Is there something wrong with this picture? You bet. That's what 13 and a half million health care and social service workers think. Tell Uncle Sam to tell the truth and perhaps they will reconsider and save this country from certain doom under a Dark Winter scenario, which otherwise makes an interesting exercise. And with so many candidate toxins and biological agents, any suggestion the weapon of choice would be smallpox is met with derision and humour by those who know about such matters.
As a skeptic how you can ask anyone if they know for certain that smallpox is not a threat? It is the same as asking if they know for certain that it is. All we can do is weigh what we know ...unassailable facts discussed over and over again above and elsewhere here and make an informed decision whether or not we should take live cowpox (Vaccinia) virus vaccination pre-emptively or not.
I marvel at the general lack of skepticism here over the necessity for vaccinating millions of people for smallpox for no reason whatsoever.
The dyanmic here never ceases to amaze.
