Vaccine questions

[ben m]

Or these videos: http://www.pkids.org/immunizations/videos.html

That's a great site. In the pertussis video, they interview a woman who caught whooping cough from a neighbor's kid; the woman's newborn then caught it and nearly died. The neighbor-woman is described as saying "Oh, we don't vaccinate." I wish the video had interviewed this neighbor. "Do you realize that your decision not to vaccinate turned your son into a Typhoid Mary who nearly killed someone?"

(ETA: maybe that's it. "OK, you get to make the vaccination decisions if I get to pick the name. If it's a girl, her name will be Typhoid Mary. If it's a boy, his name will also be Typhoid Mary." Not to make light.

If it helps: not-vaccinating is stupid and unnecessary, but it's not the worst thing in the world---it's not a death sentence. The diseases in question *are* still fairly rare, because most *other* people are still vaccinated. Your wife will probably win this gamble by mooching off everyone else's herd immunity.

And you can do your own family (and the world) a bit of good by campaigning to get *anyone else* vaccinated. Tell all of your neighbors about it. "Hi, Joe, congrats on the new baby. I hope you're vaccinating? No? Hmm, you might want to reconsider---you see, ours isn't. Yeah, you're living next to the Buhls Family Measles Swamp. You're living next to CDC Ground Zero. Think about it." If they do it, it's good for them AND good for you.

 

[Beerina]

As for the Mercury/Thimerosal questions, Thimerosal is a preservative that has been used in vaccines for more than 70 years. Thimerosal contains the Mercury that people freak out about but it has never been shown to cause any significant health problems. However due to the concerns of people who don't understand the science, and that good alternatives now exist, Thimerosal was removed from all the routine childhood vaccines in 2001. (It is still in some flu vaccines)

And that is how we also know, finally, that it has nothing to do with autism -- the autism rates continued to climb for the last 10 years.

Ergo, regardless of the chemistry and biology, there simply is no connection, and therefore no phenomenon, and therefore nothing to explain.

Or fear.



ETA: Just got a flu shot 2 days ago. The gland under the left side of my jaw swelled yesterday and still hurts. It could be coincidence, but I understand it could also be a quite normal reaction to my body learning to fight off the flu bug whose zombie ghost was introduced to my system.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

ETA: Just got a flu shot 2 days ago. The gland under the left side of my jaw swelled yesterday and still hurts. It could be coincidence, but I understand it could also be a quite normal reaction to my body learning to fight off the flu bug whose zombie ghost was introduced to my system.

The lymph and salivary glands in your jaw are upstream from the lymphatic drainage of your deltoid muscle where you would have gotten your shot. The lymphatic system drains into the large blood vessels in the chest. If your swollen "gland" was related to your flu shot, the nodes under your arm and around your clavicle are the ones that would swell. (See "upper limb lymph nodes" for the image.) Whomever told you a swollen gland in your jaw was a normal and/or potential reaction to your flu shot was most likely making a false assumption.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I am sorry your wife reacted like this.
Since I assume you love her, I hope you're both able to work out this problem.

I would not advise to take your baby to the docter secretly, if only because then you won't know when (s)he's been infected with something and thus infecting the older child.

 

[RationalVetMed]

I spent all last evening and most of today talking with my wife and referencing these points... but she refused to concede that she could be convinced the other way...

I'm sorry to hear that, but not surprised. With some people evidence, including shock tactics will never make a difference - they will argue the evidence as if it's for that reason they have made their decision but when that evidence is challenged they will stop listening. The key is that she just "knows" that vaccines are deadly and, perversely, any counter argument just confirms this world view and reinforces the 'siege mentality', driving her closer to her anti-vaccine contacts and closing her mind further.

Your best bet, as was said on the other thread, now is to try to demonstrate to the child(ren) as they grow up that your views are firm and rationally based, not just a conspiracy against their mother and other antivaccination believers.

It probably won't help but regarding the friend who had neurological problems immediately following vaccination, well coincidences happen, mundane as that may sound. In the years that I have been vaccinating animals (we get the same arguments in vet med too) I have kept an informal log of adverse events and I have seen several cases of fits, siezures and fainting, also sudden onset gastroenteritis and a couple of cases of sudden death due to blood disorders, all in dogs without any previous history. The difference being that all these striking events occurred a few minutes BEFORE the vaccine was given. My point being that if their appointments had been for an hour earlier these would have been taken as cast iron, copper bottomed proof of deadly reactions to vaccines.

Obviously that's not as exciting or as 'sexy' as telling your friends that a vaccination killed your dog, you don't get headlines screaming "Innocent dog has fit half an hour before vaccination" and that's the trouble. It's called confirmation bias - we only remember incidents which confirm what we already believe and forget all the other mundane, non temporally related ones.

Michael Shermer's book "Why people believe in weird things" is a good read if you want to learn more about the capacity of the human brain to deceive itself. There are good evolutionary reasons for it but they are counterproductive in the modern age.

Good luck James, I really hope that with persistence and gentle persuation that reason will prevail, if not for your wife then at least for your children.

Cheers,

Yuri

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

One of the things the CDC found researching anti-vaxxer beliefs is that many anti-vaxxers do trust their own pediatricians. Who do you take your kids to when they are ill? Can that health care provider help here?

 

[RationalVetMed]

One of the things the CDC found researching anti-vaxxer beliefs is that many anti-vaxxers do trust their own pediatricians. Who do you take your kids to when they are ill? Can that health care provider help here?

SkepticGinger - regarding the sudden onset neuro problems following vaccination - what about the old diptheria vaccine here in the UK (around the 80's perhaps IIRC?). If memory serves that was responsible (or was it a batch failure - dim memory, getting v. old) for some severe neuro/brain problems in children. Could that be the source of this sort of accusation about vaccines - Chinese whispers and all that, I know it's been sorted now and diptheria vacc is safe.

Yuri

PS - and I agree, it's one thing the husband trying to persuade the wife but if similar advice comes from another, unrelated, independent and trusted source that will re-inforce the message greatly (which is why of course people get so ardently ANTI-vaccination in the first place - that bunker mentality thing again).

If James ever does persuade his wife to get their child(ren) vaccinated then he will have to be prepared to be as understanding as possible about the brick-bats which will be hurled in his direction every time one of them gets any ailment no matter how minor. And if one of them gets anything serious by coincidence (autism, epilepsy, immune mediated disorders etc) then that will be QED for the wife and her anti-vaccination contacts. SUCH a difficult situation.

 

[Deetee]

I wasn't complaining about your information, just pointing out the reason the claim was wrong on it's face. I don't think anyone would easily interpret "immediate" to be a couple days later.

Live attenuated polio virus vaccine can revert to a paralytic form after it passes through the gut of the vaccine recipient. It is typically someone who catches the vaccine virus from a vaccine recipient where the problem occurs. The live vaccine is still superior when wild polio virus is circulating. When we essentially eliminated the wild polio virus from the Americas, the few cases of residual paralytic polio that occurred were found to be from the altered vaccine virus. It was decided the benefit of the live vaccine was now less than the risk on this continent. Should a resurgence of wild polio virus occur here, the benefit of the live vaccine will again exceed the risk. And you can manage the risk by making sure people who might come in contact with a vaccine recipient are vaccinated themselves.

Timing of paralytic polio from the vacine would require the vaccine virus, at a minimum, incubate in the recipient.

As you posted, GBS is thought to be caused by the immune system attacking the body's nerves. It's only extremely rarely associated with a vaccination. More often it is thought to be a reaction to an infection including influenza. Once you've had GBS, it can recur so certain vaccines are avoided, again when the risk outweighs the benefit. GBS comes on abruptly, but still not "immediately" after a vaccination.

The only immediate vaccine reactions are fainting (vaso-vagal), anaphylaxis and some other allergic reactions like hives. You could get a hematoma at the vaccine site. There may be more immediate reactions that are not coming to mind at the moment.

I think the term "immediate" is the relevant one, and as you say, vaccines that might cause something like GBS or other problems such as encephalomyelitis take several days to weeks after the jab before they happen.

"Immediate" paralysis after vaccination (within minutes) is always psychosomatic

 

[Deetee]

One of the things the CDC found researching anti-vaxxer beliefs is that many anti-vaxxers do trust their own pediatricians. Who do you take your kids to when they are ill? Can that health care provider help here?

Excellent suggestion.

James, I suggest that if you are making no headway, see if there is any chance your PCP/pediatrician might help. And give them a heads up first, so they know what to prepare for (I have encountered antivaxers who were very scathing about their doctors because they didn't know piddling details like which vaccines had squalene adjuvant in).

The other strategy is to say to her, OK, lets wind the clock back to the 1960s/70s, before there was any of this hoo hah about autism from vaccines, and give your child the schedule as it was then.

Then you can explain that the DTP vaccine that was in use then has now been made even safer (DTaP) and does not have any neurological sequelae, and that the single measles vaccine consists of an attenuated live virus vaccine (the sort that Andrew Wakefield was advocating instead of MMR) and that it is safer than the killed single measles vaccine first used in the 1960s. If she doesn't believe your own doctor, surely she would trust Andy Wakefield!

PS - If your child is a girl, then whatever else you do, make sure she gets a rubella vaccine before she is a teenager. You might not be able to get single rubella vaccine, so it may have to be MMR (but by then your wife can hardly think she might get autism)

 

[RationalVetMed]

Excellent suggestion.

James, I suggest that if you are making no headway, see if there is any chance your PCP/pediatrician might help. And give them a heads up first, so they know what to prepare for

But there must not be a HINT that the doc has been any way 'coached' by James.

If she doesn't believe your own doctor, surely she would trust Andy Wakefield!

Ah, sweet irony

Yuri

 

[Beth]

I knew the conversation was over when she told me she just has a gut feeling that vaccines are dangerous said that she will never permit her children to receive any treatment she feels is dangerous. It comes out in the conversation that she doesn't think I get an equal say in parenting because I'm not the mother. The only option she'll entertain now is no-vaccines or abortion.

I'm appreciative for the help and information you all gave me - before coming to JREF I hadn't done much research on vaccines so I've learned a lot that reinforces my trust in them - but everything's going downhill from here and I've got new problems to deal with. I'm just shocked; I thought we could calmly discuss this, share our information, and come to a conclusion based on the facts, but it's like there was no room in her mind for the possibility that she could be wrong. Thanks for the information; I'm just... sad and angry.

I'm sorry you're having such difficulties with this issue. Please keep in mind that during pregnancy, a woman may be extremely emotional and not responding entirely rationally for that reason. It might be better to table the vaccination issue for now.

 

[Almo]

There's another option: after the kid is born, you (alone) take him/her to the doctor one day and get the kid vaccinated.

And never tell your wife.

You know, I think this is the best idea I've heard. What she doesn't know won't hurt her, in this case.

ETA: Checking with a pediatrician sounded very good, too.

 

[iknownothing]

Re: the argument that babies have immature immune systems. Can your wife explain what she means by that? What does she think the immune system is, and how does she think it works? I have found that people who use that line have only very vague ideas of what it is they're talking about.

I knew the conversation was over when she told me she just has a gut feeling that vaccines are dangerous said that she will never permit her children to receive any treatment she feels is dangerous.

Could you explain to her that you have a gut feeling that polio, pertussis, influenza etc. are dangerous, and you can't allow your child to receive dangerous medical advice from quacks?

Does she 100% trust the anti-vax people? It seems the anti-vax side is very distrustful of anyone who makes money off of vaccines, but completely trusting of people who make money pushing anti-vax and alternative med stuff.

If she's nervous and into conspiracy stories, maybe you can turn her fear around on the people who are making a buck by convincing people to ignore medical advice.

There's another option: after the kid is born, you (alone) take him/her to the doctor one day and get the kid vaccinated.

And never tell your wife.

Won't work. He'd have to do that at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, 9 months, 12 months, 15 months, 18 months, 2 years, etc. And each time, have to hope and pray that the child doesn't have any raised temperature, excessive fussiness, etc. He'd have to sneak off the bandaids from 3 to 4 injection sites each time, and hope that there's no local reaction at any of those sites that the mother would notice. (My son has had raised, hard lumps at the injection site several times.)

One of the things the CDC found researching anti-vaxxer beliefs is that many anti-vaxxers do trust their own pediatricians. Who do you take your kids to when they are ill? Can that health care provider help here?

Since she apparently has an unvaccinated older child, she probably already has a "friendly" doctor. Or, she's learned to ignore the doctor and sees herself as a fierce mama bear protecting her children from the medical establishment.


Since I'm in a vaccine thread -- when is the best time to get a flu shot? If you get it too soon, you may need a booster before the end of flu season, right? I'd rather get it done once than twice. I'm in Missouri if that makes a difference.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Since I'm in a vaccine thread -- when is the best time to get a flu shot? If you get it too soon, you may need a booster before the end of flu season, right? I'd rather get it done once than twice. I'm in Missouri if that makes a difference.

About now. A flu shot will easily last a year and takes a few weeks to become effective.

 

[technoextreme]

She quoted numbers from VAERS to support her claim that the gov't knows vaccines are dangerous, but did not accept my explanation that VAERS only shows the incidence of people getting sick after a vaccine regardless of the cause (which could have been anything.) She uses VAERS reports because it's from a government agency (and thus supposedly enough to convince me), but she won't accept any research done by any government agency because she says they've made mistakes in the past and they're taking money from the vaccine manufacturers (and thus can't be trusted.)

Tell her VAERS has reports of people becoming supermen due to vaccines.

 

[Chris Haynes]

SkepticGinger - regarding the sudden onset neuro problems following vaccination - what about the old diptheria vaccine here in the UK (around the 80's perhaps IIRC?). If memory serves that was responsible (or was it a batch failure - dim memory, getting v. old) for some severe neuro/brain problems in children. Could that be the source of this sort of accusation about vaccines - Chinese whispers and all that, I know it's been sorted now and diptheria vacc is safe.
....

You can read the effect of that on an article I posted earlier:
http://ftp.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

The whole thing is covered fairly well in Dr. Paul Offit's book Deadly Choices. It was more of a case of some very bad statistical work, and some opportunestic doctors. And Brian Deer wrote about it:
http://briandeer.com/dtp-dpt-vaccine-1.htm

 

[godless dave]

There's another option: after the kid is born, you (alone) take him/her to the doctor one day and get the kid vaccinated.

And never tell your wife.

This is my suggestion.

I would also talk to a lawyer to get a realistic idea of your chances of getting primary custody if you two were to divorce.

 

[LarianLeQuella]

James,

You may be able to get some traction from this posting of information: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2...aign=Feed:+GregLadensBlog+(Greg+Laden's+Blog)

 

[Estellea]

I'm very sorry for your situation James. Perhaps you could start with her acceptance that you aren't a mere sperm donor but the father and an equal partner in the parenting of your pending newborn. If you can establish that, and it's sad that you have to, then baby steps to everything else. I'm concerned that her choices for you were unvaccinated or abortion and forgive me for playing message-board psychologist, but that is a red flag. Best of luck to you.

Este

 

[Dikken]

I thought this might be of interest. Infectious diseases are showing up in university.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/254114-campus-letter-warning-of-possible-mumps-exposure.html