Vaccine questions

[jamesbuhls]

Hello again, folks. I already feel like an idiot for coming back and asking more questions to a crowd who called me a fair number of names and even one commenter who tried to poison the well, so I suppose I've only got myself to blame for the negative attention this comment thread might generate. Still, perhaps there are some mature commenters here who can help me address the following reasons given for not vaccinating a child:

1) Vaccines contain mercury, therefore children should not receive them.

While debating this, I made the point that the amount of mercury in vaccines is probably so low that it cannot possibly do any damage. Does anybody know how much mercury - if any - is actually in the most common childhood vaccines?

2) "One of my friends was paralyzed almost immediately after receiving a vaccination, and her doctor says she shouldn't ever receive a vaccine again."

(and)

3) Vaccines contain egg protein - even those cultured in gelatin (?) - and there's no way to know if an infant is allergic to eggs so there's no reason to vaccinate.

I suggested that the egg protein or however much of the egg introduced in a vaccine is *not* the same egg you would encounter if you simply ate it and also not processed the same way because it is injected into the blood, not digested in the stomach. Is there any truth to the claim that infants (who could possibly be allergic to eggs) both cannot be tested for egg allergies and - if allergic to eggs - could have a potentially fatal, debilitating, or otherwise long-lasting adverse reaction to such vaccines? Is there any way to test an infant to discover it he or she has an allergy to eggs?

4) 6-week old infants don't have an immune system and should not be exposed to potentially deadly vaccines.

I stated the fact that the virus or bacteria present in a vaccine is either incapable of infecting the recipient or else so weakened that it cannot infect the recipient with a full-blown case of whatever it's intended to prevent. Is there any truth to this claim that infants have no immune system and cannot defend themselves?

5) Thimerosal is dangerous

I don't know enough about thimerosal or the claims that it presents a danger to recipients. Can somebody please enlighten me?

6) Even if you know know what certain vaccine manufacturers put into a vaccine, there's no way to know which vaccine your child will receive and thus no way to know for sure that the child is receiving a "safe" vaccine.

What the hell is this all about? I understand that there are many people who manufacture vaccines, but... what?

7) "Pertussis (or measles, or mumps, or rubella, can't remember which) disappeared in both North America and Europe at the same time, only one of those countries wasn't vaccinating. That's because advances in public health and sanitation made it disappear, not because the vaccine worked,"

(and)

8) "So what if there have been outbreaks of measles in California and other places where many parents stopped vaccinating? That just means the children had weak immune systems. In children with strong immune systems, they're just as capable of protecting themselves as those who did receive the vaccine."

(and)

9) [after stating how vaccines "prime" the immune system so it's better prepared in the event of illness] "That's not even the same illness - there are so many diseases out there, and that vaccine was cultured for only one of them, and the disease in the vaccine isn't the same thing the child will catch.

????????????

10) Has anybody read the book, "How to raise a healthy child (in spite of your doctor)"? It was written by Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D., published by Ballantine Books in 1987.

I can't post links, but I think it'll be easy enough for anybody here to Google it or find it on Amazon. I explained to the other party that I don't doubt her intelligence or ability to do research, but that I'm concerned new information may have come up in the last ~20 years since it was published. I also want to find out if this book (or even the doctor who wrote it) has or hasn't been discredited.

11) Do you know how many doctors don't vaccinate their children at all?

How do you come back to a question like this? I have no idea how many doctors don't vaccinate their children - do you?

 

[paulhutch]

I recommend the Center for Disease Control's web site on vaccine safety. Of course be aware that most people who argue about vaccines don't trust the CDC so will reject any information put out by them.

As for the Mercury/Thimerosal questions, Thimerosal is a preservative that has been used in vaccines for more than 70 years. Thimerosal contains the Mercury that people freak out about but it has never been shown to cause any significant health problems. However due to the concerns of people who don't understand the science, and that good alternatives now exist, Thimerosal was removed from all the routine childhood vaccines in 2001. (It is still in some flu vaccines)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Hello again, folks. I already feel like an idiot for coming back and asking more questions to a crowd who called me a fair number of names and even one commenter who tried to poison the well, so I suppose I've only got myself to blame for the negative attention this comment thread might generate. Still, perhaps there are some mature commenters here who can help me address the following reasons given for not vaccinating a child:

First, let me address the basic issue. Vaccines are by far, unquestionably safer and extremely beneficial, Compare that to the very significant risk one takes not preventing a vaccine preventable disease. To equate "natural" with good and "artificial" with bad is ludicrous. Vaccines have been developed to and do save lives. Vaccines have a century+ long track record of saving millions of lives. Vaccines at most have resulted in the deaths of a handful of people, mostly due to anaphylactic allergic reactions which could have been managed but weren't, (IE operator error). Other extremely rare life threatening reactions to vaccines are unfortunate, but compared to the diseases the vaccines prevent, these rare vaccine events are not a reason to avoid a vaccine.

Vaccines are not terribly profitable and there is no conspiracy between government and drug manufacturers to sel vaccines. That idea is also ludicrous.

The millions of health care providers from all over the world who know the benefits of vaccines and the risks of the diseases the vaccines prevent are not stupid, duped or in on the conspiracy. They recommend vaccines because these health care providers are knowledgable, educated, experienced and have observed that scientific evidence based medicine is successful while superstitious, word of mouth, conspiracy theory based bad medicine is not.

Did you know Jonas Salk put his polio vaccine into the public domaine and refused to patent it?


Your questions tell me you are probably buying into junk science in lieu of successful scientific evidence based medicine. But after I walk my dogs, if no one else has, perhaps I'll tackle your questions.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

JB -

Two questions jump out as not requiring any technical data at all.

7) "Pertussis (or measles, or mumps, or rubella, can't remember which) disappeared in both North America and Europe at the same time, only one of those countries wasn't vaccinating. That's because advances in public health and sanitation made it disappear, not because the vaccine worked,"

All 4 diseases are still around, so they cannot be said to have disappeared. And, for what it's worth, all 4 are spread by direct contact or exposure, so sanitation cannot be a factor.

8) "So what if there have been outbreaks of measles in California and other places where many parents stopped vaccinating? That just means the children had weak immune systems. In children with strong immune systems, they're just as capable of protecting themselves as those who did receive the vaccine."

So the kids with weak immune systems deserve to risk pneumonia or encephalitis? Can you say "eugenics"? I knew you could.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

And

9) [after stating how vaccines "prime" the immune system so it's better prepared in the event of illness] "That's not even the same illness - there are so many diseases out there, and that vaccine was cultured for only one of them, and the disease in the vaccine isn't the same thing the child will catch.

????????????

That's a garbled version of a true fact about flu vaccine. Due to the lead time required to produce 100 million doses, flu vaccine is tailored to what are believed to be the most likely strains for the next season, and sometimes they get it wrong.

It is entirely false with respect to vaccines for childhood diseases.

 

[FattyCatty]

Hello again, folks. I already feel like an idiot for coming back and asking more questions to a crowd who called me a fair number of names and even one commenter who tried to poison the well, so I suppose I've only got myself to blame for the negative attention this comment thread might generate. Still, perhaps there are some mature commenters here who can help me address the following reasons given for not vaccinating a child:

1) Vaccines contain mercury, therefore children should not receive them.

While debating this, I made the point that the amount of mercury in vaccines is probably so low that it cannot possibly do any damage. Does anybody know how much mercury - if any - is actually in the most common childhood vaccines?

Here is some information on the supposed mercury/autism connections from the Kids Health website:

The results of two studies done by Dr. Andrew Wakefield and colleagues (which were published in 1998 and 2002) led Dr. Wakefield to propose that the altered measles virus in the MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) vaccine, or infection with naturally occurring measles virus itself, might cause autism. Others have speculated that the very small amounts of mercury that were used as a preservative in some vaccines might also be a cause (the MMR vaccine has never contained mercury, and mercury has been completely removed from nearly all vaccines available today).

Many scientists have found serious problems with Dr. Wakefield's research and question the validity of his findings. And recently, the editors of the medical journal Lancet, which published Dr. Wakefield's study, said that the flaws were so significant that they've withdrawn the paper from their publication. Also, recently published results from several large, well-controlled, scientifically sound studies indicate that there is no link between vaccines — or any of their ingredients — and autism.

It's clear that the risks of serious reactions to the MMR and other recommended vaccines are small compared with the health risks associated with the often-serious diseases they prevent. But if you have concerns about any vaccine for your child, talk to your doctor. Ask about the benefits and risks of each vaccine and why they're so important for safeguarding your child's health.

And here is some information from the FDA on the mercury/thimerosol content in children's vaccines:

Introduction

Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes. Over the past several years, because of an increasing awareness of the theoretical potential for neurotoxicity of even low levels of organomercurials and because of the increased number of thimerosal containing vaccines that had been added to the infant immunization schedule, concerns about the use of thimerosal in vaccines and other products have been raised. Indeed, because of these concerns, the Food and Drug Administration has worked with, and continues to work with, vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from vaccines.

Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine (see Table 1). A preservative-free version of the inactivated influenza vaccine (contains trace amounts of thimerosal) is available in limited supply at this time for use in infants, children and pregnant women. Some vaccines such as Td, which is indicated for older children (≥ 7 years of age) and adults, are also now available in formulations that are free of thimerosal or contain only trace amounts. Vaccines with trace amounts of thimerosal contain 1 microgram or less of mercury per dose.

Table 1. Thimerosal Content of Vaccines Routinely Recommended for Children 6 Years of Age and Younger​

Vaccine | Tradename (Manufacturer) | Thimerosal Status Concentration**(Mercury) | Approval Date for Thimerosal Free or Thimerosal / Preservative Free (Trace Thimerosal)*** Formulation
DTaP|Infanrix (GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals)|Free|Never contained more than a trace of thimerosal, approval date for thimerosal-free formulation 9/29/2000
|Daptacel (Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd)|Free|Never contained Thimerosal
|Tripedia (Sanofi Pasteur, Inc)|Trace (≤0.3 µg Hg/0.5mL dose)|03/07/01
DTaP-HepB-IPV|Pediarix (GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals)|Free|Never contained more than a Trace of Thimerosal, approval date for thimerosal-free formulation 1/29/2007
DTaP-IPV/Hib|Pentacel (sanofi pasteur Ltd.)|Free|Approved June 20, 2008, never contained thimerosal
DTaP-IPV|KINRIX (Glaxo SmithKline Biologicals)|Free|Approved October 8, 2009, never contained thimerosal
Pneumococcal conjugate|Prevnar (Wyeth Pharmaceuticals Inc)|Free|Never contained Thimerosal
|Prevnar 13 (Wyeth Pharmaceuticals Inc.)|Free|Approved February 24, 2010, never contained thimerosal
Inactivated Poliovirus|IPOL (Sanofi Pasteur, SA)|Free|Never contained Thimerosal
Varicella (chicken pox)|Varivax (Merck & Co, Inc)|Free|Never contained Thimerosal
Mumps, measles, and rubella|M-M-R-II (Merck & Co, Inc)|Free|Never contained Thimerosal
Mumps, measles, rubella and varicella|ProQuad (Merck & Co., Inc.)|Free|Approved September 6, 2005, never contained thimerosal.
Heptatitis A|Havrix (GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals)|Free|Never contained thimerosal
|Vaqta (Merck & Co., Inc.)|Free|Never contained thimerosal
Hepatitis B|Recombivax HB (Merck & Co, Inc)|Free|08/27/99
|Engerix B (GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals)|Free|03/28/00, approval date for thimerosal-free formulation 1/30/2007
Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate (Hib)|ActHIB (Sanofi Pasteur, SA) OmnniiHIB (GlaxoSmithKline)|Free|Never contained Thimerosal
|PedvaxHIB (Merck & Co, Inc)|Free|Approval date for thimerosal free formulation 08/99
|HIBERIX (GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals)|Free|Approved August 19, 2009, never contained thimerosal
Hib/Hepatitis B combination|Comvax (Merck & Co, Inc)|Free|Never contained Thimerosal
Seasonal Trivalent Influenza|Fluzone (multi-dose presentation) (Sanofi Pasteur, Inc)|0.01% (12.5 µg/0.25 mL dose, 25 µg/0.5 mL dose)2|
|Fluzone (single-dose presentation) (Sanofi Pasteur, Inc)3|Free|12/23/2004
|Fluvirin (multi-dose presentation) (Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Ltd)|0.01% (25 µg/0.5 mL dose)|
|Fluvirin (single dose presentation) (Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Ltd) (Preservative Free)|Trace (<1ug Hg/0.5mL dose)|09/28/01
|Fluarix (single-dose presentation) (GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals)|Free|Approved 10/19/09, never contained thimerosal
|Afluria (multi-dose presentation) (CSL Limited)|0.01% (24.5 µg/0.5 mL dose)|
|Afluria (single-dose presentation) (CSL Limited)|Free|Approved 11/10/09, never contained thimerosal
Seasonal Influenza, live|FluMist (MedImmune Vaccines, Inc)|Free|Never contained Thimerosal
Rotavirus|RotaTeq (Merck and Co., Inc.)|Free|Approved February 3, 2006, never contained thimerosal
|Rotarix|(GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals)|Free|Approved April 3, 2008, never contained thimerosal

** Thimerosal is approximately 50% mercury (Hg) by weight. A 0.01% solution (1 part per 10,000) of thimerosal contains 50 µg of Hg per 1 mL dose or 25 µg of Hg per 0.5 mL dose.
*** The term "trace" has been taken in this context to mean 1 microgram of mercury per dose or less.
¹ HibTiITER was also manufactured in thimerosal-preservative containing multidose vials but these were no longer available after 2002.
² Children 6 months old to less than 3 years of age receive a half-dose of vaccine, i.e., 0.25 mL; children 3 years of age and older receive 0.5 mL.
³ A trace thimerosal containing formulation of Fluzone was approved on 9/14/02 and has been replaced with the formulation without thimerosal.

I'll try to answer your other questions in separate posts (otherwise it would be too long).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And



That's a garbled version of a true fact about flu vaccine. Due to the lead time required to produce 100 million doses, flu vaccine is tailored to what are believed to be the most likely strains for the next season, and sometimes they get it wrong.

It is entirely false with respect to vaccines for childhood diseases.

In the very long history of flu vaccine, rarely does the vaccine strain not match the circulating strains.

Influenza strains are continuously monitored by several countries as well as the WHO as the virus circulates the globe. On average it changes enough about every 18 months to warrant a new vaccine formula. Vaccine production starts in January for the Northern hemisphere and June for the Southern hemisphere, taking about 9 months.

Three strains are included in the vaccine. The law of diminishing returns results in 3 being the best number. For every strain you add beyond three you only cover an additional small percentage of the actual cases.

The science of configuring the annual flu vaccine formula is very sophisticated and well thought out. It is not a matter of guessing.

And why is so much effort put into the flu vaccine? Because influenza has the potential to kill hundreds of millions and does kill tens to hundreds of thousands of people EVERY YEAR.

Deaths from the vaccine? A relative handful at most.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I can at least answer point 6.

It's wrong. Children DO have an immune system when they are born, otherwise they'd all be dead within a week of being born.
The immune system needs to be further developed though, which is done by encountering diseases and then fighting them off.

There are two ways to do this. The natural way, in which a child encounters the fully fledged disease, evolved to bypass our immune system and consume our resources for itself.
Or the unnatural way, in which a weakened/dead version is injected which does prime the immune system, but doesnt (usually) cause any sickness.

The natural way is what was used for millennia and the unnatural way is relatively new. I suggest she looks at child mortality rates between now and earlier dates. Oh and sanitation is equally unnatural, the natural way involves no bathing unless it happens to rain and letting your child poop and pee everywhere without using a diaper.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here is some information on the supposed mercury/autism connections from the Kids Health website:And here is some information from the FDA on the mercury/thimerosol content in children's vaccines:
I'll try to answer your other questions in separate posts (otherwise it would be too long).

Thanks for your effort.

To add a bit more, all single dose vaccines are thimerosal free. Multidose vials need thimerosal to prevent bacteria growing when one punctures the vial 10-50 times drawing out multiple doses. So it's very expensive to make thimerosal free vaccines. For third world countries this is an unacceptable financial burden.

In countries that are better off financially it was decided to make pediatric vaccines thimerosal free despite the expense. While the current mercury load from vaccines was safe, as we add vaccines to the regimen, especially in infants under one year, it was prudent to consider the potential for harm given the number of vaccines kids might receive at one time. The mercury in thimerosal is ethel mercury and is rapidly excreted even in infants. Methyl mercury is the harmful form of mercury one finds in some fish. Methyl mercury is not rapidly excreted but is stored in fat. That's why it accumulates in tuna.

If parents are worried about mercury in vaccines, they could serve one less tuna sandwich to their kids and reduce the same mercury exposure from a lifetime of vaccines.

Thimerosal has been used in vaccines for more than half a century. It has a very long track record of safety.

When thimerosal was eliminated from most vaccines in the US, the rate of autism went up not down. How do we know it hadn't had a protective effect rather than a causative effect?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

OK, so I didn't "Google you", James, but I did look to see how in 6 posts you had generated "a crowd who called [you] a fair number of names and even one commenter who tried to poison the well".

It seems like you made an effort to address the issues that Truethat brought up:

I don't spend my time doing a Google search on every one of you so that I can qualify your statements, so I had foolishly hoped you wouldn't do the same for me. But, since you brought it up, I'll tell you what I tell all my clients: I'm an atheist, I don't believe in an afterlife, and I think the most important thing is to focus on what you have in this life, what you can do for the people you love, and to the greatest extent practical living in peace with others. There's a lot of suffering in life and what we choose to do about it (and how we choose to respond to it) are the true test of our humanity.

When I read cards, I tell people: I'm not a psychic, I'm a card reader - there's a difference. [snip]
I think that I'm being the more mature, responsible person by not jumping to conclusions, not making ultimatums, and persisting in my efforts to communicate with her - I think that's a pretty good example of living my values....[snip]

Here's our problem and I know I speak for some but not all of us in this forum. Some people post dishonest claims here using a recognizable pattern. The dishonest poster claims to have some question when in reality they have a pre-existing belief and the question is a dishonest way of challenging scientific evidence based beliefs.

I don't think it is fair to assume you are doing this, but at the same time I don't blame Truethat for suspecting it.

I suggest you grow a thicker skin and ignore her if your vaccine questions are sincere. You will find a wealth of information from the forum community here if you truly want good evidence supported information about vaccines and counter arguments to vaccine myth promoters that have convinced your wife to believe dangerous things about vaccines.

But if you are an anti-vaxxer who thinks you are going to win an argument here, you will not. We know our stuff and we know what the scientific evidence based facts are.

I, for one, have no reason not to believe you just because you like a particular form of massage that I don't think much of and you think "card reading" has any merit beyond fantasy. There are theists in this community and I also don't think god beliefs are rational, yet we allow them their blind spot. I'm more than willing to allow you your blind spot on card reading and Reiki. Some people here think my left wing political beliefs represent my blind spot. I don't agree but I understand their reasoning.

If you are honest in your questions about vaccines and aren't posing the questions with an anti-vaxxer agenda, ignore the criticism about the rest of your beliefs. You will be a welcome forum member. But if you are being dishonest, we are not fools here.

That said, I continue with the thread and apologize for the sidetrack.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
1) Vaccines contain mercury, therefore children should not receive them.

While debating this, I made the point that the amount of mercury in vaccines is probably so low that it cannot possibly do any damage. Does anybody know how much mercury - if any - is actually in the most common childhood vaccines?

In the US there is no longer mercury in childhood vaccines except flu vaccine and some travel vaccines like Japanese Encephalitis vaccine.

....2) "One of my friends was paralyzed almost immediately after receiving a vaccination, and her doctor says she shouldn't ever receive a vaccine again."

There are no vaccines which cause immediate paralysis. The friend and or doctor are misinformed.

3) Vaccines contain egg protein - even those cultured in gelatin (?) - and there's no way to know if an infant is allergic to eggs so there's no reason to vaccinate.

Doesn't even make any sense. The "reason" to vaccinate is we know the vaccines save lives. The diseases vaccines prevent cause significant death and disability. The vaccines very rarely cause harm. Vaccine benefit exceeds risk by far.

As for egg allergy, it is rare and can be managed when a vaccine is necessary. Yellow Fever, MMR and flu vaccine potentially contain egg protein. No other vaccines I am aware of do.

Gelatin is another potential allergy risk, different from egg protein allergy. The allergy is rare and can be managed.

Any good health care provider is prepared for an allergic reaction. Don't get your vaccine from the nurse in the mall and you should be fine. I always carry epinephrine when I give vaccinations. In 35 years and after giving tens of thousands of vaccinations, literally, I have NEVER given a single dose of epinephrine.

4) 6-week old infants don't have an immune system and should not be exposed to potentially deadly vaccines.

As has been posted, if you were born without an immune response you wouldn't live very long. Vaccines have been tested and if the child was too young to respond, the vaccine would be given at a later age. Measles vaccine, for example, is given at 15 months, not because the infant's immune system is absent, but because maternal antibody interferes with live vaccine responses at earlier ages.

5) Thimerosal is dangerous

As I posted earlier, after more than half a century we have more than sufficient evidence that thimerosal is safe.

6) Even if you know know what certain vaccine manufacturers put into a vaccine, there's no way to know which vaccine your child will receive and thus no way to know for sure that the child is receiving a "safe" vaccine.

What the hell is this all about? I understand that there are many people who manufacture vaccines, but... what?

It is about a false belief. In all modern countries, vaccines are tested for safety and if any problems are found the vaccine is not used. A couple years ago half the flu vaccine supply was taken off the market because a manufacturer failed its safety inspection. The FDA does not fool around.

7) "Pertussis (or measles, or mumps, or rubella, can't remember which) disappeared in both North America and Europe at the same time, only one of those countries wasn't vaccinating. That's because advances in public health and sanitation made it disappear, not because the vaccine worked,"

This myth keeps circulating on the Net. The evidence is overwhelming it was vaccines, not sanitation that ended deadly childhood infections. As for pertussis, the disease infected over 8,000 just last year in California and killed a number of children. A vaccine booster for adults has only been available since 2005. Once we get adults vaccine boosters we should get this disease under control again.

Measles is killing 1 per 1,000 cases and an epidemic is underway in Europe because of the anti-vaxxer ignorance. There have been many deaths.

Polio is again recurring in countries where vaccine levels have decreased due to myths.

8) "So what if there have been outbreaks of measles in California and other places where many parents stopped vaccinating? That just means the children had weak immune systems. In children with strong immune systems, they're just as capable of protecting themselves as those who did receive the vaccine."

Measles kills 1 in 1,000 people who contract the infection. For a disease that infects 100% of unvaccinated people by the time they are 30 years old, those are scary statistics.

9) [after stating how vaccines "prime" the immune system so it's better prepared in the event of illness] "That's not even the same illness - there are so many diseases out there, and that vaccine was cultured for only one of them, and the disease in the vaccine isn't the same thing the child will catch.

Well if measles doesn't kill your child, he/she will be immune. That's nuts.

I'll get back to #10.

11) Do you know how many doctors don't vaccinate their children at all?

An extremely small percentage.

I recall one conference I attended where the physician told us about a 12 yr old patient of his that died of influenza. The doctor's comment was, anyone who has ever seen this would never allow his/her own children to go a year without a flu vaccination. I wouldn't and didn't. A couple years ago a 20 yr old at my son's college died form influenza. It was so sad because it was preventable. Every year I not only vaccinated my son, I vaccinated all his friends for free. It would be intolerably sad if anyone I knew lost their child to flu.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

10) Has anybody read the book, "How to raise a healthy child (in spite of your doctor)"? It was written by Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D., published by Ballantine Books in 1987.

I can't post links, but I think it'll be easy enough for anybody here to Google it or find it on Amazon. I explained to the other party that I don't doubt her intelligence or ability to do research, but that I'm concerned new information may have come up in the last ~20 years since it was published. I also want to find out if this book (or even the doctor who wrote it) has or hasn't been discredited.

Mendelsohn is a physician who graduated in 1951. He has no respect in the medical community and no evidence to support his bizarre beliefs. Getting a medical degree is no guarantee of being an intelligent educated level headed person. Why believe these nut jobs? Why not believe the vast majority of medical providers? We are not all part of the 'for profit' establishment.

 

[Roboramma]

Your questions tell me you are probably buying into junk science in lieu of successful scientific evidence based medicine. But after I walk my dogs, if no one else has, perhaps I'll tackle your questions.

You realise that "his questions" are someone else's questions that he's asking us to help address, correct?

So why don't we all just address the questions and leave the poster's character, views, etc. out of it?

Anyway, that's my personal approach and I invite others to join me.

 

[FattyCatty]

<snip>
2) "One of my friends was paralyzed almost immediately after receiving a vaccination, and her doctor says she shouldn't ever receive a vaccine again."

Without knowing what vaccination was received, it's hard to find pertinent information. Also, from what I've read, a doctor might tell someone who had an adverse reaction to a vaccine not to get that specific vaccine or vaccination again, but I have found nothing to indicate that the doctor would say never get any vaccination again.

Here is some general information from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC):

What are Possible Side Effects of Vaccination?
Each person is unique and may react differently to vaccination.

• Occasionally, people who receive a vaccine do not respond to it and may still get the illness the vaccine was meant to protect them against.
• In most cases, vaccines are effective and cause no side effects, or only mild reactions such as fever or soreness at the injection site.
• Very rarely, people experience more serious side effects, like allergic reactions. Be sure to tell your health care provider if you have health problems or known allergies to medications or food.
• Severe reactions to vaccines occur so rarely that the risk is difficult to calculate.

Paralysis doesn't show up on the CDC's Vaccine Information Statement (VIS) as a side-effect of the DTaP vaccine or the MMR or MMRV vaccines.

Here are some possible reasons someone would say a vaccine caused paralysis. The first example is from Kids Health:

There's a girl in my class who says that getting the HPV vaccine will make you prone to becoming paralyzed. Is this true?
- Jeyne*

Your classmate was probably talking about Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS), a rare medical condition where the immune system attacks the nerves. GBS can sometimes lead to paralysis, but it is usually temporary.

Scientists don't know exactly what causes GBS, but it can be triggered by infections and occasionally by vaccines. A few girls have had GBS after the HPV vaccine. But experts don't know whether the shots caused these cases or if the girls would have had GBS anyway and just happened to get the HPV vaccine around the same time.

This is from the New York City Department of Mental Health and Hygiene:

Two types of polio vaccine are made: a live virus oral polio vaccine (OPV) and an inactivated virus injectable vaccine (IPV). The oral polio vaccine (OPV) is given as drops in the mouth. Very rarely, OPV can cause paralysis in a person who receives the vaccine or in a person who is a close household contact of the vaccinated person. This happens approximately once in every 2.6 million doses of OPV. To avoid this rare complication, OPV is no longer recommended for use as part of the routine vaccination schedule in the US and is currently not available.

Inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV) is a shot given in the leg or arm. IPV does not cause paralysis. IPV is not known to cause any reactions except mild soreness where the shot was given.
The recommended vaccine schedule for children is a total of four doses of IPV given at 2 and 4 months of age, between 6 and 18 months of age, and at 4 years of age.

Here's more on vaccine-derived polio virus from the CDC:

Where do vaccine-derived polioviruses come from, and should I be concerned if there is a case in the United States?

VDPVs can cause outbreaks in countries where vaccine coverage with OPV is low. Long-term excretion can also occur in people with certain immunodeficiency disorders. Because OPV has not been used in the United States since 2000 and vaccine coverage with IPV is high, it is unlikely that any vaccine-derived poliovirus (VDPV) seen in the United States would become widespread.

Also, polio vaccination protects people against naturally occurring polioviruses and vaccine-derived polioviruses.

(and)

3) Vaccines contain egg protein - even those cultured in gelatin (?) - and there's no way to know if an infant is allergic to eggs so there's no reason to vaccinate.

I suggested that the egg protein or however much of the egg introduced in a vaccine is *not* the same egg you would encounter if you simply ate it and also not processed the same way because it is injected into the blood, not digested in the stomach. Is there any truth to the claim that infants (who could possibly be allergic to eggs) both cannot be tested for egg allergies and - if allergic to eggs - could have a potentially fatal, debilitating, or otherwise long-lasting adverse reaction to such vaccines? Is there any way to test an infant to discover it he or she has an allergy to eggs?

Some vaccines contain egg protein. And it is possible to test to see if an infant is allergic. Information (with links) on both points follows.

From the American Academy of Pediatrics:

• Egg protein. Influenza and yellow fever vaccines are produced in eggs, so egg proteins are present in the final product and can cause allergic reaction. Measles and mumps vaccines are made in chick embryo cells in culture, not in eggs. The much smaller amount of remaining egg proteins found in the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine does not usually cause a reaction in egg allergic children.

From the Sydney South West Area Health Service

MMR immunizations in children with egg allergies
____________________________________________

In the past an allergy to egg was viewed as a contraindication for giving the
measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine at 12 months. In fact it is still stated in the Consumer Product Information. The vaccine is not cultured in whole egg but in tissue in the developing chicken embryo. Thousands of children with a known egg allergy have now been safely immunized. Occasionally there has been a rash immediately after the needle but this has been a rare event.
Some children with an egg allergy are very reactive and have multiple food
allergies and intolerances. In these cases we would continue to recommend
that they be immunized in a hospital setting.

Influenza vaccine is cultured in egg and may cause reactions in those with an
egg allergy.

Severe reactions can occur to any immunization. Doctors and nurses should
always have adrenaline immediately available as recommended in the consumer product information during any vaccination. Check that your doctor has the appropriate emergency treatment ready before any immunization is given.
<snip>
Skin test responses to egg and the chance of a reaction
_____________________________________________

The size of a skin test reaction to egg and the type of reaction with contact varies according to age.

A small skin test response to egg is highly significant at 6 months of age whereas after 12 months small skin prick test reactions to egg of 3 or 4 mm in diameter are usually only associated with mild food allergy reactions if there is any reaction at all. Note that there are exceptions.

And to repeat (maybe multiple sources will convince your wife), from the Mayo Clinic:

Vaccinations and egg allergy

Some shots to prevent illness (vaccines) contain egg proteins. In some people, these vaccines pose a risk of triggering an allergic reaction.

• Measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccines are generally safe for children with egg allergy, even though eggs are used to produce them.
• Flu (influenza) vaccines contain small amounts of egg proteins but can be given safely to most people with egg allergy without any problems. However, if you or your child has had a reaction to eggs in the past, talk to your doctor before getting a flu vaccination.
• Yellow fever vaccine can provoke an allergic reaction in some people who have egg allergy. It's given to travelers entering countries where there's a risk of contracting yellow fever. It's not generally recommended for people with egg allergy, but is sometimes given under medical supervision after testing for a reaction.
• Rabies vaccines also can cause a reaction in people with egg allergy. As with the yellow fever vaccine, rabies vaccines may be safe when given under medical supervision after testing.
• Other vaccines are generally not risky for people who have egg allergy. But ask your doctor, just to be safe. If your doctor is concerned about a vaccine, he or she may test you or your child to see whether it is likely to cause a reaction.

From the World Allergy Organization:

Eczema

About one-third of infants and young children with atopic eczema have IgE-mediated food allergy. Egg allergy is the most common food hypersensitivity in children with eczema. Appropriate diagnosis of food allergy and elimination of the offending allergen lead to significant clearing or improvement of eczema in many children with eczema and food allergy. Food allergens are believed to act as trigger factors for acute worsening of eczema in these patients, and are not the primary cause.

From the British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology guidelines for the management of egg allergy:

Summary

This guideline advises on the management of patients with egg allergy. Most commonly, egg allergy presents in infancy, with a prevalence of approximately 2% in children and 0.1% in adults. A clear clinical history and the detection of egg white-specific IgE (by skin prick test or serum assay) will confirm the diagnosis in most cases.

Also, jamesbuhls, in my last post I didn't mention that I am not a health-care professional of any kind (it seemed pretty self-evident to me). I am just trying to find you information and websites that will help you discuss this with your wife and maybe convince her that her fears are groundless.

 

[Roboramma]

The rejection of vaccines because the infant may be allergic to eggs is odd: similar logic suggests that a child should never be given eggs to eat. That the vaccine is given in an environment in which medical professionals are near at hand suggests that it's actually safer than letting a child's first exposure to eggs being at home around the breakfast table.

 

[Capsid]

3) Vaccines contain egg protein - even those cultured in gelatin (?) - and there's no way to know if an infant is allergic to eggs so there's no reason to vaccinate.

I suggested that the egg protein or however much of the egg introduced in a vaccine is *not* the same egg you would encounter if you simply ate it and also not processed the same way because it is injected into the blood, not digested in the stomach. Is there any truth to the claim that infants (who could possibly be allergic to eggs) both cannot be tested for egg allergies and - if allergic to eggs - could have a potentially fatal, debilitating, or otherwise long-lasting adverse reaction to such vaccines? Is there any way to test an infant to discover it he or she has an allergy to eggs?

Actually vaccines are processed in a similar manner to digestion. The vaccine is never injected into the blood stream (it wouldn't work so well if it was) but into the muscle where the vaccine is identified by dendritic cells which process (digest) it and then carry the vaccine proteins to the local lymph nodes. Which is no different to what happens when viruses or bacteria are encountered.

5) Thimerosal is dangerous

I don't know enough about thimerosal or the claims that it presents a danger to recipients. Can somebody please enlighten me?

Thiomersal or thimerosal is a mercury compound not elemental mercury and entirely different. That's like saying we have metallic iron in our blood rather than haemoglobin.

6) Even if you know know what certain vaccine manufacturers put into a vaccine, there's no way to know which vaccine your child will receive and thus no way to know for sure that the child is receiving a "safe" vaccine.

What the hell is this all about? I understand that there are many people who manufacture vaccines, but... what?

Each batch of vaccine that is made has to be tested rigorously before it can be released. All vaccine manufacturers are strictly regulated through inspections.

 

[Capsid]

8) "So what if there have been outbreaks of measles in California and other places where many parents stopped vaccinating? That just means the children had weak immune systems. In children with strong immune systems, they're just as capable of protecting themselves as those who did receive the vaccine."

The fit and healthy can die from influenza due to cytokine storms. having as strong or weak immune system is trusting to luck.

9) [after stating how vaccines "prime" the immune system so it's better prepared in the event of illness] "That's not even the same illness - there are so many diseases out there, and that vaccine was cultured for only one of them, and the disease in the vaccine isn't the same thing the child will catch.

????????????

Vaccines are available for the major child killers. What diseases are there that we need vaccines for? I can think of HIV and hepatitis C. The other diseases (Ebola, monkeypox) are more exotic and unlikely to be needed for mass vaccination.

A separate point is that mass vaccination is to protect the population not just the individual. It's there to protect those who can't be immunised or who are immunocompromised. The rubella component of the MMR is to protect pregnant women and their unborn foetuses. There's absolutely no need for boys to receive it yet they do. I think it's a huge advance that our society came to a decision to do this. Let's not undo it all.

 

[Deetee]

Has your wife heard about Bob Sears alternative vaccine schedule?

I wouldn't ordinarily recommend it (for excellent reasons) but if your wife is quite intransigent about the vaccine issue then it may be a way of meeting her "halfway".

 

[Safe-Keeper]

2) "One of my friends was paralyzed almost immediately after receiving a vaccination, and her doctor says she shouldn't ever receive a vaccine again."

We Norwegians like to say that "everything is dangerous". Which means, everything takes lives every year, from beds to chocolate to cars to vaccinations. People are killed by seat belts. People die during open heart surgery. Ambulances and fire trucks are involved in deadly traffic accidents. People die from falling out of bed.

Everything is dangerous. You can't take a single nuclear meltdown, or anecdotes about vaccine side-effects, and conclude these things are so dangerous they need to be discontinued.

 

[LarianLeQuella]

All these questions have been answered ad nauseum... I set up http://factsnotfantasy.com/vaccines.php to address these as well as the CDC pages and links already provided....