Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Reality Check]

When will the media tell the truth about the danger of vaccines?

Equally valid questions:
When will anti-vaccine autism web sites learn that there is no scientific evidence that vaccines or thimerosal cause autism, Clayton Moore?
Will you learn that one news report is not the entire media and that this news report in particular is telling the truth about the Verstraeten study (see below), Clayton Moore ?

There is a basic bit of science that www.autisminvestigated.com is ignorant of - a preliminary phase of a trial is designed and analyzed to look for possible effects to be further investigated in later phases of the trial. They tend to give positive results. They are sometimes overridden by the second phase so that the study gives neutral or even negative results.

See Acid flashbacks to antivaccine conspiracy theories from nine years ago for the author explanation:

The Verstraeten VSD study was always intended to be a two phase study, as Emily Willingham and Lindsay Beyerstein reported. They both explain it well, but I think I’ll go to the source, Verstraeten himself, who wrote an letter to the editor of Pediatrics in 2004 about the study:
Did the CDC water down the original results? It did not.
...
Because the findings of the first phase were not replicated in the second phase, the perception of the study changed from a positive to a neutral study. Surprisingly, however, the study is being interpreted now as negative by many, including the antivaccine lobbyists. The article does not state that we found evidence against an association, as a negative study would. It does state, on the contrary, that additional study is recommended, which is the conclusion to which a neutral study must come.

The second phase is not mentioned in that www.autisminvestigated.com article.

The article is totally wrong about Is The CDC Hiding Data About Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism? by Emily Willingham, where she "B]Pretends CDC Study Results Do Exist[/B] by mentioning them!

The www.autisminvestigated.com article is appropriate though for this CT thread - the CDC supported by the Masons, in conjunction with Big Pharma and supervised by the Grey aliens obviously suppressed the preliminary phase of the trial .
The reality is probably that a bunch of bureaucrats were reluctant to release data from the preliminary phase of a study.

 

[Clayton Moore]

How are they different from entered bacteria and viruses?

I don't know.

 

[Clayton Moore]

How many, exactly?

I don't know. You could look it up.

 

[Reality Check]

The processes of the human body are so complex, so interdependent, that entered drugs and vaccines are time bombs.

Not at all, Clayton Moore, because you have presented no evidence of this!
So I took an aspirin 20 years ago - when am I going to explode ?

Doctors have tested the effects of "entered drugs and vaccines" over long periods of time and found that the overwhelming majority of drugs and vaccines are not time bombs. They basically do what they are supposed to do.
The long term effects of drugs are well known (look up any of the databases that are freely available or ask your doctor).
As for vaccines, start with Vaccine Safety

 

[Reality Check]

I don't know. You could look it up.

But Clayton Moore, you must have already looked it up so that you could then ask "How can people believe that hpv vaccine is safe when so many young women have died or become severely disabled from it?".

So just cite the source that you found that counts the young women who have died (as on their death certificate) from the HPV vaccine. Or the source that has a count of young women who have been diagnosed as being severely disabled by the HPV vaccine.

There are adverse events reported for the HPV vaccine, e.g. Human Papillomavirus Vaccination Coverage Among Adolescent Girls, 2007–2012, and Postlicensure Vaccine Safety Monitoring, 2006–2013 — United States
(deaths are not broken out separately)

Summary of HPV Adverse Event Reports Published in JAMA has 32 deaths reported in association with HPV vaccination but

The 32 death reports were reviewed and there was no common pattern to the deaths that would suggest they were caused by the vaccine. In cases where there was an autopsy, death certificate, or medical records, the cause of death could be explained by factors other than the vaccine. Some causes of death determined to date include diabetes, viral illness, illicit drug use, and heart failure

 

[000063]

An open mind would observe that he or she is in the midst of medical community mindset catastrophe. Think about it.

Says the man who ignores and rationalizes all evidence vaccines are safe.

The medical community can't figure out the cause of all of these threatening conditions yet it demands we not question what's behind the curtain.

Who's this "we"? Also, appeal to ignorance.

How many people do you know who condition driven?

Say, you do know that the medical folks have done studies on vaccines themselves, right? And published their results openly? Why does the evidence of anti-vaxxers often consist of looking at everything but said results?

The medical community is often addressing conditions, breakdowns of body processes, caused by previous medical treatment be it vaccines or drugs.

You're arguing that they're behaving responsibly as evidence that that they're behaving irresponsibly. Got it.

Take the pain killing aspirin type drugs. If you read the insert they can cause all kinds of conditions. The conditions are treated with more "drugs" which in turn may cause more exotic conditions.

Whoa, hold on, you're getting bogged down in the details.

Do you get it it? The processes of the human body are so complex, so interdependent, that entered drugs and vaccines are time bombs.

I think I saw that in a movie once.

Of course, given the amount of crap bodies can survive, I wouldn't be too worried.

Do you think the people telling about their vaccine tragedy are making it up?

There's a difference between "wrong" and "making it up". Hanlon's Razor indicates the latter, especially in light of the fact that most of the people making these claims have no medical or scientific background whatsoever.

Please note the following link to the Merck Home Health Handbook says vaccines, not one particular vaccine.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9725613&postcount=6972

>"or something else"

You did see that bit, right? And the bit that says that it's caused by the brain reacting to the vaccine, not the vaccine itself? And how it's most commonly caused by viral bug bites in the US?

Fact? It's likely many vaccines don't even work.

http://www.naturalnews.com/044087_vaccinated_students_mumps_outbreaks_Fordham_University.html

Fordham University mumps outbreak affecting only vaccinated students; school bans unvaccinated students anyway

Thursday, February 27, 2014 by: Jonathan Benson, staff writer

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/044087_v...tbreaks_Fordham_University.html#ixzz2uVLEhnJD

You forgot to mention that it was a whopping 13 students out of 15K.

Also, quit spamming your favorite kook sites, and actually discuss stuff.

I don't know.

I don't know. You could look it up.

At least two, right?

 

[Hans]

I don't know. You could look it up.

May we take that to mean that you are declining to provide support for the statement you made previously?

 

[crhkrebs]

Now that you're back, can you finally show us your evidence that the MMR vaccine causes autism. I've personally been asking you for about a year and you've never shown anything beyond anecdotes from misinformed parents. Where's your evidence, Clayton?

 

[Estellea]

Fact? It's likely many vaccines don't even work.

http://www.naturalnews.com/044087_vaccinated_students_mumps_outbreaks_Fordham_University.html

Fordham University mumps outbreak affecting only vaccinated students; school bans unvaccinated students anyway

Thursday, February 27, 2014 by: Jonathan Benson, staff writer




Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/044087_v...tbreaks_Fordham_University.html#ixzz2uVLEhnJD

A fact huh? But you cite Natural News yet again. What training/expertise does the Health Deranger have in vaccinology? But more to the point, the mumps portion is the least effective of the MMR jab with effectiveness ~70%. On a college campus with thousands upon thousands of students, 14 get mumps who were vaccinated as young children. How many didn't get mumps Clay?

As for vaccine effectiveness yet again, how about answering this?

I have a challenge for Clayton Moore which is to please explain how it is mostly unvaccinated people becoming infected with measles as well as to find some evidence that more harms were caused by MMR vaccine than the actual disease (bear in mind that these stats are only for measles and not for rubella and mumps).
http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/a/measles-outbreaks.htm

It's time he quantifies his claims.

Este

 

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
In forums like this one, you see a lot of folks trying to prove causation by correlation; but AFAICT, Clayton hasn't even established a correlation. TBF, I haven't read the whole thread, and possibly he did so in another post; if so, he can certainly point that post out now if he wants to.

Fact? It's likely many vaccines don't even work.

http://www.naturalnews.com/044087_vaccinated_students_mumps_outbreaks_Fordham_University.html

Fordham University mumps outbreak affecting only vaccinated students; school bans unvaccinated students anyway

Thursday, February 27, 2014 by: Jonathan Benson, staff writer




Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/044087_v...tbreaks_Fordham_University.html#ixzz2uVLEhnJD

Do you always answer a point with a non-sequitur? The correlation I was referring to was you the one you claimed between vaccines and

Once fragile DNA becomes injured/mutated, and IT'S MESSAGE is incorrect, it cannot heal itself. The bloodline becomes less successful.

Can you show this correlation or not (never mind causation for now- we'll deal with what comes later after we've established what needs to come first)? It's a simple question.

 

[Chris Haynes]

A fact huh? But you cite Natural News yet again. What training/expertise does the Health Deranger have in vaccinology? But more to the point, the mumps portion is the least effective of the MMR jab with effectiveness ~70%. On a college campus with thousands upon thousands of students, 14 get mumps who were vaccinated as young children. How many didn't get mumps Clay?

As for vaccine effectiveness yet again, how about answering this?

I personally know that getting mumps does not mean you are permanently immune to it. It really shocked my mother when I caught mumps for a second time. (that was in 1968, an epidemic year for mumps, apparently enough of the virus was floating around it overwhelmed whatever immunity I had from the earlier infection)

I think it is disingenuous to expect better protection from the vaccine than from actually getting the disease.

 

[Estellea]

An open mind would observe that he or she is in the midst of medical community mindset catastrophe. Think about it. The medical community can't figure out the cause of all of these threatening conditions yet it demands we not question what's behind the curtain. How many people do you know who condition driven?

You begged for lurkers to come out in your defence and when that failed spectacularly, you accuse people of being "closed-minded". How ironic. What "threatening conditions" are you referring to? Autism? How can a vaccine causation be "hidden behind a curtain" when vaccine associations have been investigated and no valid study can find an association? I can't even parse that last sentence of yours.

The medical community is often addressing conditions, breakdowns of body processes, caused by previous medical treatment be it vaccines or drugs.

Such as?

Take the pain killing aspirin type drugs. If you read the insert they can cause all kinds of conditions. The conditions are treated with more "drugs" which in turn may cause more exotic conditions.

Such as?

Do you get it it? The processes of the human body are so complex, so interdependent, that entered drugs and vaccines are time bombs.

Elaborate please and provide proper citations such as found in PubMed.

Do you think the people telling about their vaccine tragedy are making it up?

Yes.

Please note the following link to the Merck Home Health Handbook says vaccines, not one particular vaccine.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9725613&postcount=6972

As you have been told before, that entry has nothing to do with vaccines at all.

Este

 

[Giordano]

Do you get it it? The processes of the human body are so complex, so interdependent, that entered drugs and vaccines are time bombs.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9725613&postcount=6972

My God, don't try to prevent or to treat disease! It is all so complicated! We all were so better off when these vaccines and drugs didn't exist and the natural course of disease occurred! It's not as if people are living much longer and better now, is it? Or that these drugs and vaccines were actually shown to be better than the actual diseases in controlled studies...

 

[Estellea]

When will the media tell the truth about the danger of vaccines?

They have been, you just don't like the accuracy of the reporting.

http://www.autisminvestigated.com/


Forbes’ Emily Willingham Pretends CDC Study Results Don’t Exist
February 23, 2014 10:52 pm \ 4 Comments \ Jake Crosby


Vaccine Industry Watchdog Obtains CDC Documents That Show Statistically Significant Risks of Autism Associated with Vaccine Preservative Thimerosal
February 20, 2014 10:26 am \ 13 Comments \ Jake Crosby

How very sad quoting Jake Crosby and fellow conspiracy-theorist Brian Hooker. I'll give some background on Brian Hooker for those not familiar. He has an autistic son, believes that mercury caused it and has a Vaccine Court petition. Even though the Omnibus Autism Proceedings (OAP) completely shredded the notion that thiomersal causes autism and the copious studies to that effect, Brian Hooker has been on this crusade for so long he has simply deluded himself that he has uncovered a great conspiracy. The final nail in the thiomersal-autism coffin was nailed in four years ago with the OAP.

Here is a recent study that references infant studies which demonstrates the marked differences in MeHg and EtHg.

Este

 

[Clayton Moore]

As you have been told before, that entry has nothing to do with vaccines at all.

Merck's Home Health Handbook says

Encephalitis can occur in the following ways: A virus directly infects the brain. A virus that caused an infection in the past becomes reactivated and directly damages the brain. A virus or vaccine triggers a reaction that makes the immune system attack brain tissue (an autoimmune reaction).

"

It plainly does have to do with vaccines.

 

[Estellea]

Merck's Home Health Handbook says

"

It plainly does have to do with vaccines.

Ah, my bad. I thought it was the one you cited before which said nothing about vaccines. In any event, what do you suppose would happen to someone who had to deal with measles, mumps, rubella, H. influenzae b, S. pneumoniae and so on? To whit, which one is worse:
A.) MMR triple jab causes encephalitis in less than 1 per 1,000,000 doses administered.
or:
B.) Measles virus alone causes encephalitis in 1 per 1000 measles cases.

Put another way, a U.S. birth cohort is ~4 million. Which is worse:
A.) Less than 4 cases of encephalitis due to MMR vaccination
or:
B.) Four thousand cases of encephalitis due to measles infections.

Go ahead, answer A or B; which is worse?

Este

 

[Clayton Moore]

They have been, you just don't like the accuracy of the reporting.



How very sad quoting Jake Crosby and fellow conspiracy-theorist Brian Hooker. I'll give some background on Brian Hooker for those not familiar. He has an autistic son, believes that mercury caused it and has a Vaccine Court petition. Even though the Omnibus Autism Proceedings (OAP) completely shredded the notion that thiomersal causes autism and the copious studies to that effect, Brian Hooker has been on this crusade for so long he has simply deluded himself that he has uncovered a great conspiracy. The final nail in the thiomersal-autism coffin was nailed in four years ago with the OAP.

Here is a recent study that references infant studies which demonstrates the marked differences in MeHg and EtHg.

Este

So if vaccines can cause Encephalitis and Encephalitis can cause autism can vaccines cause autism?

 

[BrianH]

From the FDA, regarding the Merck MMR vaccine:
Encephalitis has been reported approximately once for every 3 million doses of MMR vaccine. Post-marketing surveillance of more than 400 million doses distributed worldwide (1978 to 2003) indicates that encephalitis is rarely reported after MMR vaccination. In no case has it been shown conclusively that encephalitis was caused by a vaccine virus infection of the central nervous system.

From the CDC:
The incidence of mumps encephalitis is reported to range from 1 in 6000 mumps cases (0.02%) to 1 in 300 mumps cases (0.3%). As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, and about 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis.


It appears that it is far more dangerous to forgo vaccination, by several orders of magnitude. I left out the smallpox numbers (another vaccine that reportedly caused some cases of encephalitis) since the disease has been eradicated (by vaccine).

 

[Clayton Moore]

From the FDA, regarding the Merck MMR vaccine:
Encephalitis has been reported approximately once for every 3 million doses of MMR vaccine. Post-marketing surveillance of more than 400 million doses distributed worldwide (1978 to 2003) indicates that encephalitis is rarely reported after MMR vaccination. In no case has it been shown conclusively that encephalitis was caused by a vaccine virus infection of the central nervous system.

From the CDC:
The incidence of mumps encephalitis is reported to range from 1 in 6000 mumps cases (0.02%) to 1 in 300 mumps cases (0.3%). As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, and about 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis.


It appears that it is far more dangerous to forgo vaccination, by several orders of magnitude. I left out the smallpox numbers (another vaccine that reportedly caused some cases of encephalitis) since the disease has been eradicated (by vaccine).

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/168997.php

Health authorities suspect incidence is higher than official figures because many cases go unreported when symptoms are mild.

So how does a baby or child report a mild case of encephalitis?

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.anh-usa.org/cdc-caught-red-handed-exaggerating-flu-cases-and-deaths/

CDC Caught Red-Handed Exaggerating Flu Cases and Deaths
February 25, 2014

It’s no secret that the CDC exaggerates flu hospitalization and death numbers to scare Americans into getting the flu shot. Glen Nowak, former communications director for the CDC’s National Immunization Program, openly admitted to this during a 2004 presentation to the AMA. Although the presentation has been removed from the AMA’s website (most likely due to its incriminatory nature), other websites have archived it. http://www.fisique.ca/documents/CDC_2004_flu_nowak.pdf

Of particular interest is Nowak’s plan (he even calls it a “recipe”) to increase vaccination rates. Medical experts and public health authorities are encouraged to:

Express concern and alarm publicly (e.g., in the media), predict dire outcomes, and urge influenza vaccination;

Frame the flu season in terms that motivate behavior (e.g., using phrases like “very severe,” “more severe than last or past years,” “deadly”);

Help foster the perception that many people are susceptible to a base case of influenza, by using continued reports from health officials and media that influenza is causing severe illness and/or affecting lots of people; and

Show photographs of children and the families of those affected coming forward to get vaccinated.

Just another CDC lie.


other websites have archived it. http://www.fisique.ca/documents/CDC_2004_flu_nowak.pdf