Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Hans]

Will the lurking posters PLEASE speak up against vaccines and help spread the alarm.

Sure, your ideas and facts are pure fantasy. Vaccines do very little harm while doing great good.

The only alarm should be about the dangers of not vaccinating

 

[Reality Check]

http://preventdisease.com/news/14/0...ic-Childrens-Brains-Doubled-Last-7years.shtml

Will the lurking posters PLEASE speak up for science about vaccines and help spread the facts about vaccines?
That link is about the anti-vaccination theme of "toxins" in vaccines. It follows the same pattern of ignoring the fact that toxicity depends on dosage and so the presence of a toxic substance (like water !) in a vaccine does not mean that vaccines are toxic. It contains at least one outright lie: "Despite thimerosal (a mercury-based preservative) being banned by the FDA, 60% of all flu vaccines still contain this deadly neurotoxin."
Thiomersal has never been shown to be a neurotoxin in the doses in vaccines or in human studies.
The FDA has never banned thimerosal in vaccines. The FDA has banned mercury compounds in cosmetics.
The U.S. Public Health Service did decide to remove thimerosal from most childhood vaccines (PDF)

The U.S. Public Health Service decided that as much mercury as possible should be removed from vaccines, and thimerosal was the only source of mercury in vaccines. Even though there was no evidence that thimerosal in vaccines was dangerous, the decision to remove it was made as a precautionary measure to decrease overall exposure to mercury among young infants. This decision was possible because childhood vaccines could be
reformulated to leave out thimerosal without threatening their safety,
effectiveness, and purity.

Thimerosal and 2013-2014 Seasonal Flu Vaccines list 20 approved flu vaccines. There are 6 of them with mercury. That is 30% not 60%.

Toxic myths about vaccines is a science based blog posts dating from 2008 about the subject.

One of the biggest myths that antivaccinationists believe and like to use to stoke the fear of vaccines is the concept that they are full of “toxins.” The myth that mercury in the thimerosal preservative commonly used in vaccines in the U.S. until early 2002 was a major cause of autism is simply the most recent bogeyman used to try to argue that vaccines do more harm than good, as was the scare campaign engineered in response to Andrew Wakefield’s poor science claiming a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Now that study after study have failed to find or corroborate a link between thimerosal in vaccines or vaccines in general and autism to the point where even the most zealous of zealots are having a hard time defending the claim that mercury in vaccines cause autism any more, predictably the campaign against vaccines has fallen back on the old “toxins” myth.

 

[Reality Check]

How can people believe that hpv vaccine is safe when so many young women have died or become severely disabled from it?

How can people believe that question when "many" is so vague and the question does not mention the "many" young woman saved from death or severe disability by not getting cervical cancer, Clayton Moore?
Safety is a risk/benefit analysis. Otherwise no one would try to cross a road because at least one person has died doing that ! No one would drive a car, take a flight, go swimming, go to a hospital, go through childbirth, etc.

The science is behind a pay-wall but here is the abstract.
On the relationship between human papilloma virus vaccine and autoimmune diseases

The human papilloma virus (HPV) vaccines were introduced to reduce the incidence of cervical cancer. The bivalent vaccine is effective against HPV-16, -18, -31, -33 and -45 while the quadrivalent vaccine is effective against HPV-16, 18, 31, 6 and 11 types. The immunisation, recommended for adolescent females, has led to high vaccine coverage in many countries.

Along with the introduction of the HPV vaccines, several cases of onset or exacerbations of autoimmune diseases following the vaccine shot have been reported in the literature and pharmacovigilance databases, triggering concerns about its safety. This vaccination programme, however, has been introduced in a population that is at high risk for the onset of autoimmune diseases, making it difficult to assess the role of HPV vaccine in these cases and no conclusive studies have been reported thus far.

We have thus analysed and reviewed comprehensively all case reports and studies dealing with either the onset of an autoimmune disease in vaccinated subject or the safety in patients with autoimmune diseases to define the role of the HPV vaccines in these diseases and hence its safety. A solid evidence of causal relationship was provided in few cases in the examined studies, and the risk vs. benefit of vaccination is still to be solved. The on-going vigilance for the safety of this vaccine remains thus of paramount importance.

So we have an vaccine that is effective against several types of viruses. it has been used by millions? of young woman. There have been "several cases of onset or exacerbations of autoimmune diseases reported" and a few of these cases have evidence of a causal relationship.

If the web site is correctly quoting the authors

The authors caution that, "The decision to vaccinate with HPV vaccine is a personal decision, not one that must be made for public health. HPV is not a lethal disease in 95% of the infections; and the other 5% are detectable and treatable in the precancerous stage."

then there is something a bit wrong. The first part is right. But the rest of HPV infections progress to the precancerous stage or cancer. And the implication by the web site that "treatable" means that there are no deaths is wrong.
Cervical cancer

Human papillomavirus (HPV) infection appears to be a necessary factor in the development of almost all cases (90+%) of cervical cancer.[1][3] ...
Prognosis depends on the stage of the cancer. There is a high chance of a survival rate around 100 for women with microscopic forms of cervical cancer.[59] With treatment, the 5-year relative survival rate for the earliest stage of invasive cervical cancer is 92%, and the overall (all stages combined) 5-year survival rate is about 72%. These statistics may be improved when applied to women newly diagnosed, bearing in mind that these outcomes may be partly based on the state of treatment five years ago when the women studied were first diagnosed.[60]

 

[haibut]

http://preventdisease.com/news/14/0...ic-Childrens-Brains-Doubled-Last-7years.shtml

Feb 18, 2014 by DAVE MIHALOVIC
Vaccines A Major Source of Toxicity




All it takes is a little reading. You owe it to your children and grandchildren. Once fragile DNA becomes injured/mutated, and IT'S MESSAGE is incorrect, it cannot heal itself. The bloodline becomes less successful.

Will the lurking posters PLEASE speak up against vaccines and help spread the alarm.


http://www.umdf.org/site/pp.aspx?c=8qKOJ0MvF7LUG&b=7934627

I lurk this thread. You have utterly failed to make your case. If anything, your posts would make any reasonable person think the opposite. Your avatar is quite inappropriate.

 

[zooterkin]

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/study-reveals-unavoidable-danger-hpv-vaccines


Posted on:
Monday, February 17th 2014 at 6:00 am
Written By:
Sayer Ji, Founder


How can people believe that hpv vaccine is safe when so many young women have died or become severely disabled from it?

How many, exactly?

 

[Estellea]

http://preventdisease.com/news/14/0...ic-Childrens-Brains-Doubled-Last-7years.shtml

Feb 18, 2014 by DAVE MIHALOVIC
Vaccines A Major Source of Toxicity




All it takes is a little reading. You owe it to your children and grandchildren. Once fragile DNA becomes injured/mutated, and IT'S MESSAGE is incorrect, it cannot heal itself. The bloodline becomes less successful.

Will the lurking posters PLEASE speak up against vaccines and help spread the alarm.


http://www.umdf.org/site/pp.aspx?c=8qKOJ0MvF7LUG&b=7934627

Yes, all it takes is a little reading to see how incredibly stupid the author of your link is. First, methylmercury and ethylmercury (the latter in some influenza vaccines) are not the same compound and thus they cannot be compared. E.g. ethylmercury is excreted much faster and doesn't bioaccumulate any where near the same rate as methylmercury. We are also not ever exposed, even infants to any where near the toxic threshhold of ethylmercury. Ethylmercury doesn't get "converted" to methylmercury.

The FDA has never banned thiomersal.

Even if your assertion where correct and well that's a stretch to say the least, what is the uptake of thiomersal-containing flu vaccines in infants and pregnant women? How much is required for your alleged "toxicity"? What does any of this have to do with mitochondrial disease? Are you aware that the UMDF, which is what you linked to does not support, in any way your claim? They are very pro-vaccine because of what VPDs can do to children with mito diseases.

You really don't know anything about genetics do you? Your last statement is rather incorrect to say the least, not to mention reeks of "purity".

Este

 

[Estellea]

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/study-reveals-unavoidable-danger-hpv-vaccines


Posted on:
Monday, February 17th 2014 at 6:00 am
Written By:
Sayer Ji, Founder


How can people believe that hpv vaccine is safe when so many young women have died or become severely disabled from it?

Because so many women haven't died or became severely disabled from it. Your source is not accurate at all. Perhaps you should look at the VAERS reports and FDA findings yourself to see what causes of deaths and other "disabilities" were actually from. That's what I do.

Este

 

[Tanalia]

Another lurker here siding with real science. The only alarm needed is against all the anti-vaccine nonsense.

 

[pakeha]

Clayton, I've read both your links twice; and I have to tell you, I see nothing in the first article that even implies (much less states outright) anything about "DNA becom[ing] injured/mutated," or "IT'S MESSAGE" (or a bloodline) becoming corrupted, as a result of vaccines. And I see nothing in the second article that implicates vaccines in mitochondrial DNA disease. Maybe you can point out the link between the two from the articles; but, as it is, it just seems to me that you're standing on a street corner with a sign in one hand that shouts "Vaccines!!" and another sign in the other hand that shouts "DNA corruption!!!"- and the only real link between the two is you holding the signs.

"A little reading" is fine; a little more understanding of what you're reading would be better, I think.

This was my reaction as well after having read those links.

 

[Dcdrac]

dear Lurkers we do owe clayton some thanks for showing up all the crank anti vaccine websites for what they are, utter unscientific propaganda bilge machines usually linked to a bogus product the owners of the site want to sell the public.

Thank you clayton for putting these anti vaccination quacks right into the harsh light of detailed examination.

 

[catsmate]

I hope this is considered on-topic; yesterday (23FEB) was the 60th anniversary of the beginning of clinical testing of Salk's polio vaccine.
Millions of cases of this horrible disease prevented, perhaps two million saved from permanent paralysis and thousands from death.
Thread.

 

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Clayton, I've read both your links twice; and I have to tell you, I see nothing in the first article that even implies (much less states outright) anything about "DNA becom[ing] injured/mutated," or "IT'S MESSAGE" (or a bloodline) becoming corrupted, as a result of vaccines. And I see nothing in the second article that implicates vaccines in mitochondrial DNA disease. Maybe you can point out the link between the two from the articles; but, as it is, it just seems to me that you're standing on a street corner with a sign in one hand that shouts "Vaccines!!" and another sign in the other hand that shouts "DNA corruption!!!"- and the only real link between the two is you holding the signs.

"A little reading" is fine; a little more understanding of what you're reading would be better, I think.

This was my reaction as well after having read those links.

In forums like this one, you see a lot of folks trying to prove causation by correlation; but AFAICT, Clayton hasn't even established a correlation. TBF, I haven't read the whole thread, and possibly he did so in another post; if so, he can certainly point that post out now if he wants to.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Another lurker here siding with real science. The only alarm needed is against all the anti-vaccine nonsense.

An open mind would observe that he or she is in the midst of medical community mindset catastrophe. Think about it. The medical community can't figure out the cause of all of these threatening conditions yet it demands we not question what's behind the curtain. How many people do you know who condition driven?

The medical community is often addressing conditions, breakdowns of body processes, caused by previous medical treatment be it vaccines or drugs.

Take the pain killing aspirin type drugs. If you read the insert they can cause all kinds of conditions. The conditions are treated with more "drugs" which in turn may cause more exotic conditions.

Do you get it it? The processes of the human body are so complex, so interdependent, that entered drugs and vaccines are time bombs.

Do you think the people telling about their vaccine tragedy are making it up?

Please note the following link to the Merck Home Health Handbook says vaccines, not one particular vaccine.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9725613&postcount=6972

 

[Reality Check]

Since thimerosal in vaccines has been mentioned:
Acid flashbacks to antivaccine conspiracy theories from nine years ago

...
I’m referring to the claim that there has been a “coverup” of data “proving” that the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal that was in many childhood vaccines causes autism.
...
My first reaction to this claim was a massive, massive yawn. Why is that? Quite simply, I thought I was having an acid flashback to 2005, as this bogus argument dates back at least that far.

 

[Clayton Moore]

In forums like this one, you see a lot of folks trying to prove causation by correlation; but AFAICT, Clayton hasn't even established a correlation. TBF, I haven't read the whole thread, and possibly he did so in another post; if so, he can certainly point that post out now if he wants to.

Fact? It's likely many vaccines don't even work.

http://www.naturalnews.com/044087_vaccinated_students_mumps_outbreaks_Fordham_University.html

Fordham University mumps outbreak affecting only vaccinated students; school bans unvaccinated students anyway

Thursday, February 27, 2014 by: Jonathan Benson, staff writer

So to recap, a university in New York reports 13 cases of an illness that should not have emerged because every single person who caught it had previously been vaccinated, and the school decides to punish the unvaccinated by denying them an education, all the while welcoming back with open arms those who caught the disease, and who might still spread it to other students.

Nothing about this type of scenario is at all reasonable from a logical perspective, as any rational-thinking person who has not been brainwashed into the vaccine religion will clearly see that vaccines do not work and actually reduce immunity. And yet in our demented society this type of decision-making is considered par for the course and a reasonable response to handling infectious disease outbreaks among the vaccinated.

"[N]atural immunity last a lifetime," states one ABC News commenter about the benefits of not getting vaccinated. Deconstructing yet another plank in the pro-vaccine house of cards, he added that vaccination lasts "2-10 years initially and then 2-3 years on boosters. This means that the adult population has not been immune to MMR, Whooping Cough, Flu, etc... for the last 50 years, and yet there have been no epidemics."

"It is a money making, but deadly dangerous, racket bringing billions to Big Pharma and their paid political stooges."

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/044087_v...tbreaks_Fordham_University.html#ixzz2uVLEhnJD

 

[pakeha]

We've posted up links to news of studies which point to a co-relation between the father's age and the likelihood of a child being autistic.
CM hasn't responded, IIRC, to the implications that the father's age has more to do with a child's autism than vaxx.

In any case, BBC reports a recent American-Swedish study shows the age of the father is a factor not only in autism, but other conditions as well.

Comparing children of a 45-year-old dad to those of a 24-year-old father it indicated:

autism was more than three times as likely
a 13-fold increased risk of ADHD
double the risk of a psychotic disorder
25 times more likely to have bipolar disorder
2.5 times more likely to have suicidal behaviour or problems with drugs
lower scores at school

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26355415

 

[Clayton Moore]

When will the media tell the truth about the danger of vaccines?


http://www.autisminvestigated.com/


Forbes’ Emily Willingham Pretends CDC Study Results Don’t Exist
February 23, 2014 10:52 pm \ 4 Comments \ Jake Crosby

Forbes’ writers seem to have trouble reading scientific abstracts. In December, its senior editor Matthew Herper cited a press release that contradicted the research he discussed to endorse the vaccine efficacy of Gardasil. That, however, pales in comparison to the type of misrepresentation contributor Emily Willingham made when she conflated an earlier, suppressed CDC analysis (left abstract in image) showing thimerosal is associated with autism with a later, watered-down analysis CDC distributed at a public meeting that showed no association (right abstract in image). All the more remarkable is that she is an autism parent herself and has a PhD in biology.

Vaccine Industry Watchdog Obtains CDC Documents That Show Statistically Significant Risks of Autism Associated with Vaccine Preservative Thimerosal
February 20, 2014 10:26 am \ 13 Comments \ Jake Crosby

Dr. Hooker, a PhD scientist, worked with two members of Congress to craft the letter to the CDC that recently resulted in his obtaining long-awaited data from the CDC, the significance of which is historic. According to Hooker, the data on over 400,000 infants born between 1991 and 1997, which was analyzed by CDC epidemiologist Thomas Verstraeten, MD, “proves unequivocally that in 2000, CDC officials were informed internally of the very high risk of autism, non-organic sleep disorder and speech disorder associated with Thimerosal exposure.”

When the results of the Verstraeten study were first reported outside the CDC in 2005, there was no evidence that anyone but Dr. Verstraeten within the CDC had known of the very high 7.6-fold elevated relative risk of autism from exposure to Thimerosal during infancy. But now, clear evidence exists. A newly-acquired abstract from 1999 titled, “Increased risk of developmental neurologic impairment after high exposure to Thimerosal containing vaccine in first month of life” required the approval of top CDC officials prior to its presentation at the Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) conference. Thimerosal, which is 50% mercury by weight, was used in most childhood vaccines and in the RhoGAM® shot for pregnant women prior to the early 2000s.

 

[Loss Leader]

Do you get it it? The processes of the human body are so complex, so interdependent, that entered drugs and vaccines are time bombs.

How are they different from entered bacteria and viruses?

 

[Reality Check]

It's likely many vaccines don't even work.

Sorry, Clayton Moore, but it is an actual fact that all vaccines work. They have different levels of efficacy and effectiveness. See vaccine efficacy for an explanation of the difference.
From memory:
* the measles vaccine is 90% effective which is why multiple doses (3?) are given to raise the level of immunization.
* the flu vaccine is 70% effective.

No knowledgeable person should think that vaccines are 100% effective. That a staff writer for www.naturalnews.com writes a statement that implies that vaccines are 100% effective is frankly abysmal journalism.

 

[Dcdrac]

Fact vaccines do work been tested over and over again.

clayton where is your evidence that autism is caused by the MMR vaccine?