Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Robrob]

Yes, a key phrase is less often.

Retaining the word OFTEN still means OFTEN.

And never happens? Retaining the key word HAPPENS still means HAPPENS?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Answering my own question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_disseminated_encephalomyelitis#Causes_and_antecedent_history

Causes and antecedent history

Viral infections thought to induce ADEM include influenza virus, enterovirus, measles, mumps, rubella, varicella zoster, Epstein Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, herpes simplex virus, hepatitis A, and coxsackievirus; while the bacterial infections include Mycoplasma pneumoniae, Borrelia burgdorferi, Leptospira, and beta-hemolytic Streptococci.[15] The only vaccine proven to induce ADEM is the Semple form of the rabies vaccine, but hepatitis B, pertussis, diphtheria, measles, mumps, rubella, pneumococcus, varicella, influenza, Japanese encephalitis, and polio vaccines have all been implicated. The majority of the studies that correlate vaccination with ADEM onset use small samples or case studies. Large scale epidemiological studies (e.g., of MMR vaccine or smallpox vaccine) do not show increased risk of ADEM following vaccination.[7][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25] In rare cases, ADEM seems to follow from organ transplantation.[19] The risk of ADEM from measles vaccination is about 1 to 2 per million,[18] which is far lower than the risk of developing ADEM from an actual measles infection, which is about 1 per 1000 for measles (and 1 per 5000 for rubella).[20][26] Measles infection also appears to lead to worse ADEM outcomes than cases associated with measles immunization. Some vaccines, later shown to have been contaminated with host animal CNS tissue, have ADEM incident rates as high as 1 in 600.[16]

Notice it says SOME VACCINES. If just 10 vaccines were contaminated with host animal CNS tissue the ADEM incident rate would be 1 in 60. What's the current Autism rate? 1 in 50.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Yes, a key phrase is less often.

Retaining the word OFTEN still means OFTEN.

Care to quantify your bolded term?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Causes and antecedent history



Notice it says SOME VACCINES. If just 10 vaccines were contaminated with host animal CNS tissue the ADEM incident rate would be 1 in 60. What's the current Autism rate? 1 in 50.

I know a thing or two about how vaccines are made. Do you? How likely would it be that "just 10 vaccines" could be contaminated? Any thoughts on how likely it would be that vaccine contamination would show up, and what the repercussions would be to the manufacturing lab?

I expect you to ignore both of these posts. Please surprise and disappoint me. I may even lose a bet on it if you post a reliable citation.

 

[jdc324]

Causes and antecedent history



Notice it says SOME VACCINES. If just 10 vaccines were contaminated with host animal CNS tissue the ADEM incident rate would be 1 in 60. What's the current Autism rate? 1 in 50.

Clayton, I think you will find that if you follow the references in that article that the citation for the "some vaccines" claim goes to a paper on rabies vaccine (i.e. just one vaccine). Please feel free to identify the other 9 vaccines. Oh, and by the way, was the Semple rabies vaccine part of the schedule during the rise in ASD diagnosis?

I found this paper which might prove interesting: http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/75/suppl_1/i22.full.pdf

a much reduced incidence of post-vaccination encephalomyelitis, now that most vaccines are no longer prepared from in vivo infected CNS tissue

Oh, and you might find this interesting too:

Presently, however, the non-neural measles, mumps, and rubella vaccinations are most commonly associated with post–vaccination encephalomyelitis. The incidence is 1-2 per million for live measles vaccinations. This is somewhat less than the 1 in 1000 incidence of post-infectious encephalomyelitis following measles virus infection. They may reasonably conclude that while both a cause and a prevention of ADEM, on balance vaccination dramatically reduces the incidence of ADEM. Post-vaccination encephalomyelitis would typically form less than 5% of present ADEM cases.

And just a couple more snippets from that Wikipedia page:

The only vaccine proven to induce ADEM is the Semple form of the rabies vaccine

Large scale epidemiological studies (e.g., of MMR vaccine or smallpox vaccine) do not show increased risk of ADEM following vaccination.

 

[Robrob]

Causes and antecedent history

Notice it says SOME VACCINES. If just 10 vaccines were contaminated with host animal CNS tissue the ADEM incident rate would be 1 in 60. What's the current Autism rate? 1 in 50.

Meaning, if you somehow managed to take all ten of the contaminated vaccines at once - you have a 1:60 incidence rate of ADEM?

1) Have you provided any evidence linking ADEM to autism?

2) Do you realize your cited study is dated 1987?

3) And that it was a study on rabies vaccination?

 

[Estellea]

Yes, a key phrase is less often.

Retaining the word OFTEN still means OFTEN.

Proportion is key and not a layperson's misunderstanding of "often" in context of comparing proportions.

Causes and antecedent history

Notice it says SOME VACCINES. If just 10 vaccines were contaminated with host animal CNS tissue the ADEM incident rate would be 1 in 60. What's the current Autism rate? 1 in 50.

No Clay, I stated earlier that ADEM is not autism and simply because a few symptoms are shared doesn't mean they are the same or even related. Measles causes flu-like symptoms as well as Dengue and dozens of other pathogens, doesn't mean they are the same does it?

ADEM is a specific diagnosis, how again could it be missed in tens of thousands of children in several countries for several years?

Este

 

[Estellea]

The Cochrane Collaboration produces the most exhaustive reviews of scientific studies to date and include some of the best investigators in the world; they have been unable to identify any association between MMR and everything Clayton Moore has claimed. http://www.princeton.edu/~sswang/ASD/demicheli_pietrantonj12_cochrane_report_MMR-risks.pdf including autism, diabetes and encephalomyelitis.

So please tell me Clayton, how are you more adept at assessing the scientific literature than these investigators and what equal or higher quality evidence can you produce to nullify these results?

Este

 

[Dcdrac]

No clayton LESS OFTEN means LESS OFTEN

 

[Clayton Moore]

The Cochrane Collaboration produces the most exhaustive reviews of scientific studies to date and include some of the best investigators in the world; they have been unable to identify any association between MMR and everything Clayton Moore has claimed. http://www.princeton.edu/~sswang/ASD/demicheli_pietrantonj12_cochrane_report_MMR-risks.pdf including autism, diabetes and encephalomyelitis.

So please tell me Clayton, how are you more adept at assessing the scientific literature than these investigators and what equal or higher quality evidence can you produce to nullify these results?

Este

I don't have a profit agenda. I care about the children world wide who are being injured by vaccines. The bottom line is that the Human Body is basically structured to ingest, breath, and excrete naturally through an orifice. It's called evolution. If you attempted to eat only eucalyptus leaves and drink water you would soon die. Entering foreign substances into the body through the skin will also have negative side effects. The more foreign substances and the greater the volume of foreign substances entered through the skin the more negative side effects. Evolution is adjusting to the environment. There is no way mammals can evolve to process vaccine debris.

 

[Dcdrac]

clayton all you have shown in your last effort is profound ignorance of how vaccines work, how evolution works, how the human body works and how biology works.

The real injuries that have happened are the children and adults who have died because of the evidence free anti vaccination campaigns that have been mounted, those deaths are clearly the fault of the anti vaccination campaigns and are the true global injury to the children of the World.

 

[LSSBB]

I don't have a profit agenda. I care about the children world wide who are being injured by vaccines. The bottom line is that the Human Body is basically structured to ingest, breath, and excrete naturally through an orifice. It's called evolution. If you attempted to eat only eucalyptus leaves and drink water you would soon die. Entering foreign substances into the body through the skin will also have negative side effects. The more foreign substances and the greater the volume of foreign substances entered through the skin the more negative side effects. Evolution is adjusting to the environment. There is no way mammals can evolve to process vaccine debris.

The body combats foreign agents by creating an immune response. Vaccines accelerate that natural process so the body can combat the foreign agents.

Neglecting vaccines leaves a poor child's body defenseless to those foreign agents.

 

[Yerushalmi]

I don't have a profit agenda. I care about the children world wide who are being injured by vaccines. The bottom line is that the Human Body is basically structured to ingest, breath, and excrete naturally through an orifice. It's called evolution. If you attempted to eat only eucalyptus leaves and drink water you would soon die. Entering foreign substances into the body through the skin will also have negative side effects. The more foreign substances and the greater the volume of foreign substances entered through the skin the more negative side effects. Evolution is adjusting to the environment. There is no way mammals can evolve to process vaccine debris.

1) Are you saying that of the hundreds of thousands of pediatricians around the world, 99% of them have a "profit agenda" and are willing to give their patients autism for money? Including my children's pediatrician, whom I know well, trust a great deal, and sends his own granddaughter to the same day care my daughter goes to? You must hold a very cynical attitude towards pretty much all of humanity if pretty much every single one of the people who chose as their jobs a high-stress, low-thanks occupation did so for the money rather than because they want to feel like they're doing good. Why don't you apply any of that skepticism towards the people claiming that vaccines cause autism, though? They make a lot of money too.

2) Do you know anything about how foreign substances get excreted from the body? Most of the junk that flows around your bloodstream is removed from the body not because the body "processes" it but because it simply passes through the extra-thin walls of the blood vessels that go through the kidneys. The kidneys merely add water and urea so it has something to float in, and it gets pushed out when you pee. "Vaccine debris" is included in that. No "processing" - or evolution - necessary.

3) If you eat only eucalyptus leaves, you'll die not because you'll have a buildup of "eucalyptusness" in your body but because eucalyptus leaves don't provide nutrition. Your example mistakes starvation for toxicity.

4) When the body takes in something it is not designed to process, it simply pushes it back out. There is no such thing as junk molecules that float around your body indefinitely, doing nothing. Sooner or later they get used or removed. Only substances that are actively harmful can cause a problem, and vaccines are very thoroughly tested to make sure they don't contain any such substances.

5) The human body is not "designed to intake things only through orifices", nor does "through the skin" automatically make something dangerous. The skin is naturally porous and things go both in and out through it (have you never sweated? Do you think those holes are strictly one-way?), and you don't find people developing autism after getting saline IVs and the like, do you?

6) Ultimately, it doesn't matter what theoretical framework you try and invent as to how or why vaccines might cause autism. Ultimately, either it does or it doesn't. Either the percentage of people who have autism is higher among the vaccinated or it isn't. Every single time this has been checked, the answer has been negative.

 

[Estellea]

I don't have a profit agenda. I care about the children world wide who are being injured by vaccines. The bottom line is that the Human Body is basically structured to ingest, breath, and excrete naturally through an orifice. It's called evolution. If you attempted to eat only eucalyptus leaves and drink water you would soon die. Entering foreign substances into the body through the skin will also have negative side effects. The more foreign substances and the greater the volume of foreign substances entered through the skin the more negative side effects. Evolution is adjusting to the environment. There is no way mammals can evolve to process vaccine debris.

You didn't answer the question. I asked you to produce your credentials and some evidence of equal or higher quality than the Cochrane Review. Furthermore, you have a profound lack of understanding of basic human biology. If we are incapable of "dealing with foreign substances into the body through the skin" then how do you explain not dying, getting autistic or whathaveyou whenvever we are stung by an insect or cut ourselves. Please answer the questions; your incessant distractions are boring and unproductive.

Este

 

[pakeha]

..
6) Ultimately, it doesn't matter what theoretical framework you try and invent as to how or why vaccines might cause autism. Ultimately, either it does or it doesn't. Either the percentage of people who have autism is higher among the vaccinated or it isn't. Every single time this has been checked, the answer has been negative.

At the end of the day, CM, this is the essence of the question.
There's nothing to show vaxxes cause autism.

 

[Loss Leader]

The more foreign substances and the greater the volume of foreign substances entered through the skin the more negative side effects.

Even assuming the existence of negative side effects, do you have any evidence that the negative side effects outweigh the positive ones? Last May, I had open heart surgery. I received various medications through IVs for a month. Beyond that, somebody sawed open my sternum and put his hands in my heart. The human body really, really wasn't designed for that. Yet, without that intervention I'd be dead now. So, assuming I suffered negative side effects, how do they outweigh not being dead?

Evolution is adjusting to the environment. There is no way mammals can evolve to process vaccine debris.

Dead wrong. In fact, assuming vaccines were harmful, it is the best way for humans to evolve. We give children harmful chemicals. Most of them die. The ones who can tolerate the condition reproduce. Repeat for several generations and voila!

Your own example of eucalyptus leaves is perfect. The leaves contain a toxin that cannot be tolerated by most mammals. In times of famine, some turned to eucalyptus leaves, They got sick and starved before they could reproduce. Some were able to handle the poison. They reproduced and each generation grew stronger. Now we have an animal (the koala, obviously) that eats nothing but eucalyptus leaves.

That's evolution.

 

[000063]

I don't have a profit agenda.

Neither do I, but I wouldn't gainsay my heart surgeon. Also, the CC is an independent nonprofit, as a few seconds Googling would've informed you.

I care about the children world wide who are being injured by vaccines.

And little, it seems, about the children who are being injured by not having vaccines.

The bottom line is that the Human Body is basically structured to ingest, breath, and excrete naturally through an orifice. It's called evolution.

No, that's called defecation.

If you attempted to eat only eucalyptus leaves and drink water you would soon die.

A similar effect might be found with a Big Mac meal, though it'll take longer.

Entering foreign substances into the body through the skin will also have negative side effects.

I'd better stop using lotion.

The more foreign substances and the greater the volume of foreign substances entered through the skin the more negative side effects. Evolution is adjusting to the environment. There is no way mammals can evolve to process vaccine debris.

Call me crazy, but I don't think of as you much of an expert on biology.

Also, you didn't answer the question. Also, didn't you say you had no problem with the "vaccine concept"?

 

[Reality Check]

Dr. Tenpenny on Vaccines
http://sanevax.org/silent-suffering-hpv-vaccines/

Dr. Tenpenny is lying. HPV vaccine

As of 1 September 2009, there have been 44 U.S. reports of death in females after receiving the vaccine.[51] None of the 27 confirmed deaths of women and girls who had taken the vaccine were linked to the vaccine.[51]

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited. Please see modbox here.

 

[Reality Check]

743,000 Gardasil Shots Recalled: Contaminated with Glass Particles

FYI
Gardasil is the HPV vaccine that has killed many young girls and disabled many more.

The web site is lying about the doses being actually contaminated with glass.
FAQ: Voluntary Recall of One Lot of Gardasil® HPV (Human Papillomavirus Quadrivalent) Vaccine

On December 16, 2013 CDC was informed by Merck that the company planned to implement a voluntary recall of one lot (lot J007354) of Gardasil® [Human Papillomavirus Quadrivalent (types 6, 11, 16, and 18) Vaccine, Recombinant], due to the potential for a small number of vials to contain glass particles as a result of breakage during the manufacturing process.
...
If a vaccine containing glass particles (tiny enough to get through a needle) is given to a patient, mild reactions routinely seen after vaccination may occur (for instance, redness or swelling at the injection site).

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited for thread guidelines.

 

[Reality Check]

Accident? How could broken glass contaminate a vaccine in a lab/controlled environment?

The broken glass might have been detected by quality control. But if they have a check on all vials for glass then they could just thrown those vials out. I suspect that standard operating procedure on the manufacturing line is to inspect the apparatus after each run and it was found there was a broken glass component.

Edited for new thread guidelines. Please familiarize yourself with these guidelines. This is the third warning.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader