Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Reality Check]

Weigh in on this one. If you dare. Vaccines are big dollars.

Define "big dollars",
Why should companies who make anything never be allowed to make profits from their products?
Do you think that chemotherapy drugs are cheap (not "big dollars")?

Some facts: As it happens, vaccines are not the most profitable products developed by the pharmaceutical sector. Medicines for patients with chronic diseases, which are taken every day, would be more profitable than a vaccine which provides a long-lasting impact.

 

[Reality Check]

Notice how every child is to get

"most people get maybe a score of vaccinations their entire lives" is the number of visits to the doctor for vaccination. I recently got my flu shot and diphtheria update in one visit.

But you are right. The standard schedule has more than a score of separate vaccine doses.
Recommended Immunization Schedule for Persons Age 0 Through 18 Years

 

[Reality Check]

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/br..._disorders/brain_infections/encephalitis.html
This wraps it up.

The quoting of this Merck page about how viruses and sometimes bacteria cause encephalitis wraps what up,?
This is a well known fact: Encephalitis.

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited. New moderation rules for thread. Please familiarize yourself with same.

 

[Reality Check]

URL format changed by Merck.

Merck still mention vaccines in the context of autoimmune reactions, i.e. the encephalitis that is known to be caused by a tiny percentage of vaccinations.
Encephalitis

•A virus or vaccine triggers a reaction that makes the immune system attack brain tissue (an autoimmune reaction).
...
Autoimmune encephalitis:
After certain viral infections or vaccines, the body's immune system sometimes attacks the layers of tissue that wrap around nerve fibers (called the myelin sheath) in the brain and spinal cord The attack occurs because proteins in myelin resemble those in the virus.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Just because two conditions both involve the same symptom doesn't mean one can cause the other. If you climb into a furnace, your body heat will rise; if you catch the flu, your body heat will rise. You do not catch the flu from climbing into furnaces.

Well put without malice.

 

[Yerushalmi]

Well put without malice.

I do my best

As to the substance of the argument, though, what do you think? Given that it's clear that vaccines do not cause autism because study after study has failed to uncover any link, and given that the connection you attempted to draw from a cause-and-effect standpoint is spurious, is there anything else I can do to alleviate your concerns?

 

[Clayton Moore]

I do my best

As to the substance of the argument, though, what do you think? Given that it's clear that vaccines do not cause autism because study after study has failed to uncover any link, and given that the connection you attempted to draw from a cause-and-effect standpoint is spurious, is there anything else I can do to alleviate your concerns?

The problem is that the term vaccine protects ignorant and flawed, outdated medicine.


Think of it as a medical The King, the Mice and the Cheese.

Please tell us what happens to the vaccine materials after the immune system is summoned and does or doesn't do as expected?

 

[Estellea]

The problem is that the term vaccine protects ignorant and flawed, outdated medicine.


Think of it as a medical The King, the Mice and the Cheese.

What does this even mean?

Please tell us what happens to the vaccine materials after the immune system is summoned and does or doesn't do as expected?

If you don't know the answer to this then how can you come to the conclusions you do? It would help if you would describe what you think happens and be accepting of correction.

Este

 

[Yerushalmi]

The problem is that the term vaccine protects ignorant and flawed, outdated medicine.

What are you talking about?

Please tell us what happens to the vaccine materials after the immune system is summoned and does or doesn't do as expected?

What happens to the contents of any pill you take? What happens to the contents of the food you eat? What happens to the air you breathe, or the intravenous nutrition provided to coma patients? The same thing that happens to everything else: it either is broken down into various useful things, or it is expelled from the body, or both.

Specifically, in this case, the dead/weakened virus/bacteria that make up the vaccine are attacked and swallowed whole by the cells in the body whose job it is to do exactly that. Since they differ from regular viruses and bacteria only in either their state of being dead or in what particular genes they contain, there is nothing biochemically unfamiliar about them from the body's point of view. Said viruses and bacteria are broken down into their component proteins and other molecules, and those molecules are then used as the body likes. The DNA and RNA of bacteria and viruses, for instance, are broken down into individual A, C, T, G, and U units, and usually end up being used by the body when building its own DNA.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What are you talking about?



What happens to the contents of any pill you take? What happens to the contents of the food you eat? What happens to the air you breathe, or the intravenous nutrition provided to coma patients? The same thing that happens to everything else: it either is broken down into various useful things, or it is expelled from the body, or both.

Specifically, in this case, the dead/weakened virus/bacteria that make up the vaccine are attacked and swallowed whole by the cells in the body whose job it is to do exactly that. Since they differ from regular viruses and bacteria only in either their state of being dead or in what particular genes they contain, there is nothing biochemically unfamiliar about them from the body's point of view. Said viruses and bacteria are broken down into their component proteins and other molecules, and those molecules are then used as the body likes. The DNA and RNA of bacteria and viruses, for instance, are broken down into individual A, C, T, G, and U units, and usually end up being used by the body when building its own DNA.

And the remaining ingredients of the vaccine(s)?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf

 

[Clayton Moore]

What does this even mean?

If you don't know the answer to this then how can you come to the conclusions you do? It would help if you would describe what you think happens and be accepting of correction.

Este

So you don't know?


I do.

The danger of vaccines and drugs? The body hasn't programmed any processes to facilitate their exit from the body.

 

[Border Reiver]

So you don't know?


I do.

I doubt that, but enlighten us.

 

[Yerushalmi]

And the remaining ingredients of the vaccine(s)?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf

(...)
The body hasn't programmed any processes to facilitate their exit from the body.

First of all, you get very hung up on this "processing" idea. There is often no processing necessary to get things out of the bloodstream. Even what processing does occur occurs at the edges of the molecule, grabbing an NH group and replacing it with an H or whatever. Most of the molecule remains the same until the blood passes through special blood vessels in the kidneys during its natural trip around the body; these blood vessels are porous, allowing pretty much anything smaller than a cell to simply pass through the walls. Then you just pee it out. The body doesn't need to know anything about it in order to get rid of it.

Secondly, there are WAY too many things in that chart to go over one by one. But I'll pick one vaccine and go over its ingredients and we'll see what happens. I'll take polio; we just had a threatened outbreak here in Israel, so lots of people had to take the vaccine so it could be prevented.

Third, I don't think you appreciate just how small the amounts are. Almost everything on the list at the link you provided is part of the production process of the vaccine, to ensure that the vaccine is completely sterile and free of bacteria and viruses other than the dead/dying one we want to protect the patient from. After the production process, though, the vaccine undergoes purification to eliminate all those substances, and only traces of them remain in the vaccine itself! We're talking about nanograms here, not even milligrams. Even the single most toxic substance in the world, botulinum toxin, isn't dangerous at that level when taken orally!

Anyway, here are the results of my investigation into the chemicals used to create the polio vaccine:

1) 2-phenoxyethanol.

An entire oral dose of 11 mg of unlabelled 2-phenoxyethanol was accounted for in the urine of one healthy male volunteer as 2-phenoxyacetic acid. Most of the acid was excreted unconjugated.

So, very simply, the body turned it into another chemical and it came out in the urine.

2) Formaldehyde. This is easily processed by the E. coli that live in your bloodstream.

3) Neomycin. This is an antibiotic to prevent the vaccine from getting contaminated with bacteria; I hope I don't need to reassure you that antibiotics in extremely low doses don't cause damage to the human body! But just in case I do: Neomycin sulfate is poorly absorbed from the normal gastrointestinal tract. The small absorbed fraction is rapidly distributed in the tissues and is excreted by the kidney in keeping with the degree of kidney function. The unabsorbed portion of the drug (approximately 97%) is eliminated unchanged in the feces. And there are only 5 nanograms of neomycin in an entire dose of a vaccine.

4) Streptomycin. Ditto: Streptomycin is excreted by glomerular filtration. In patients with normal kidney function, between 29% and 89% of a single 600 mg dose is excreted in the urine within 24 hours. Any reduction of glomerular function results in decreased excretion of the drug and concurrent rise in serum and tissue levels
I will reiterate that there are nowhere near 600 mg of streptomycin in a vaccine dose. This, in fact, says that there's less than 1/3,000,000 of that!

5) Polymyxin B. This is not excreted in the urine, and it hasn't yet been discovered exactly how the body gets rid of it. But it must go somewhere, because this chart makes it clear that the levels of polymyxin B in the blood drop over time. I will also relink this, which indicates that there are less than 25 nanograms of polymyxin B in a vaccine. That's 1/24,000,000 of the dose given to a sick person who needs to take polymyxin B to treat an infection!

6) monkey kidney cells. This is simply the vehicle for the inactivated polio virus. Your body tears those cells apart and uses it for spare parts, just as it tore apart the cells of the cow or the carrot you ate for breakfast this morning.

7) Eagle MEM modified medium. This is simply a standardized collection of food. See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle's_minimal_essential_medium Amino acids? Salts? Sugar? Vitamins? There's nothing in there you don't eat every meal.

8) Calf serum protein. The purification process eliminates the protein from the final vaccine: "The residual calf serum protein is less than 1 ppm in the final vaccine." Less than 1 ppm, in a vaccine 0.5 mL in size, is far lower than the dangerous dose of the most toxic substance in the world. And like most other proteins, it is easily broken down by the body or excreted in the urine.


So, in summation:
1) Not one of the accompanying substances of the polio vaccine is something the body doesn't know how to get rid of in some fashion
2) Not one of the accompanying substances of the polio vaccine is present in a dose high enough to even come close to being dangerous, except among people who are allergic to said substances.

 

[Dcdrac]

Thank you this was a concise and clear post and very informative.

What happens to the contents of any pill you take? What happens to the contents of the food you eat? What happens to the air you breathe, or the intravenous nutrition provided to coma patients? The same thing that happens to everything else: it either is broken down into various useful things, or it is expelled from the body, or both.

Specifically, in this case, the dead/weakened virus/bacteria that make up the vaccine are attacked and swallowed whole by the cells in the body whose job it is to do exactly that. Since they differ from regular viruses and bacteria only in either their state of being dead or in what particular genes they contain, there is nothing biochemically unfamiliar about them from the body's point of view. Said viruses and bacteria are broken down into their component proteins and other molecules, and those molecules are then used as the body likes. The DNA and RNA of bacteria and viruses, for instance, are broken down into individual A, C, T, G, and U units, and usually end up being used by the body when building its own DNA. .

 

[Estellea]

So you don't know?

Of course I know but there are many excipients that are eliminated differently it would help to know what you are concerned with.

I do.

The danger of vaccines and drugs? The body hasn't programmed any processes to facilitate their exit from the body.

But this isn't remotely correct. Even from a purely logical standpoint, how could you survive at all if you were incapable of processing/excreting substances you come in contact with particularly since not all are required.

Este

 

[Clayton Moore]

First of all, you get very hung up on this "processing" idea. There is often no processing necessary to get things out of the bloodstream. Even what processing does occur occurs at the edges of the molecule, grabbing an NH group and replacing it with an H or whatever. Most of the molecule remains the same until the blood passes through special blood vessels in the kidneys during its natural trip around the body; these blood vessels are porous, allowing pretty much anything smaller than a cell to simply pass through the walls. Then you just pee it out. The body doesn't need to know anything about it in order to get rid of it.

Secondly, there are WAY too many things in that chart to go over one by one. But I'll pick one vaccine and go over its ingredients and we'll see what happens. I'll take polio; we just had a threatened outbreak here in Israel, so lots of people had to take the vaccine so it could be prevented.

Third, I don't think you appreciate just how small the amounts are. Almost everything on the list at the link you provided is part of the production process of the vaccine, to ensure that the vaccine is completely sterile and free of bacteria and viruses other than the dead/dying one we want to protect the patient from. After the production process, though, the vaccine undergoes purification to eliminate all those substances, and only traces of them remain in the vaccine itself! We're talking about nanograms here, not even milligrams. Even the single most toxic substance in the world, botulinum toxin, isn't dangerous at that level when taken orally!

Anyway, here are the results of my investigation into the chemicals used to create the polio vaccine:

1) 2-phenoxyethanol. So, very simply, the body turned it into another chemical and it came out in the urine.

2) Formaldehyde. This is easily processed by the E. coli that live in your bloodstream.

3) Neomycin. This is an antibiotic to prevent the vaccine from getting contaminated with bacteria; I hope I don't need to reassure you that antibiotics in extremely low doses don't cause damage to the human body! But just in case I do: Neomycin sulfate is poorly absorbed from the normal gastrointestinal tract. The small absorbed fraction is rapidly distributed in the tissues and is excreted by the kidney in keeping with the degree of kidney function. The unabsorbed portion of the drug (approximately 97%) is eliminated unchanged in the feces. And there are only 5 nanograms of neomycin in an entire dose of a vaccine.

4) Streptomycin. Ditto: Streptomycin is excreted by glomerular filtration. In patients with normal kidney function, between 29% and 89% of a single 600 mg dose is excreted in the urine within 24 hours. Any reduction of glomerular function results in decreased excretion of the drug and concurrent rise in serum and tissue levels
I will reiterate that there are nowhere near 600 mg of streptomycin in a vaccine dose. This, in fact, says that there's less than 1/3,000,000 of that!

5) Polymyxin B. This is not excreted in the urine, and it hasn't yet been discovered exactly how the body gets rid of it. But it must go somewhere, because this chart makes it clear that the levels of polymyxin B in the blood drop over time. I will also relink this, which indicates that there are less than 25 nanograms of polymyxin B in a vaccine. That's 1/24,000,000 of the dose given to a sick person who needs to take polymyxin B to treat an infection!

6) monkey kidney cells. This is simply the vehicle for the inactivated polio virus. Your body tears those cells apart and uses it for spare parts, just as it tore apart the cells of the cow or the carrot you ate for breakfast this morning.

7) Eagle MEM modified medium. This is simply a standardized collection of food. See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle's_minimal_essential_medium Amino acids? Salts? Sugar? Vitamins? There's nothing in there you don't eat every meal.

8) Calf serum protein. The purification process eliminates the protein from the final vaccine: "The residual calf serum protein is less than 1 ppm in the final vaccine." Less than 1 ppm, in a vaccine 0.5 mL in size, is far lower than the dangerous dose of the most toxic substance in the world. And like most other proteins, it is easily broken down by the body or excreted in the urine.


So, in summation:
1) Not one of the accompanying substances of the polio vaccine is something the body doesn't know how to get rid of in some fashion
2) Not one of the accompanying substances of the polio vaccine is present in a dose high enough to even come close to being dangerous, except among people who are allergic to said substances.

Good work. That was an oral vaccine which would be processed by the digestive system. How about the injected MMR or injected Daptacel liquid vaccine?

 

[Yerushalmi]

I didn't know it was the oral vaccine when I first started investigating it. You'll note, however, that most of the substances I reviewed provided kidney filtration rates. The kidneys are not connected to the digestive system; anything they excrete came by definition from the bloodstream. So I would imagine that none of the injected vaccines are any different.

 

[Estellea]

I didn't know it was the oral vaccine when I first started investigating it. You'll note, however, that most of the substances I reviewed provided kidney filtration rates. The kidneys are not connected to the digestive system; anything they excrete came by definition from the bloodstream. So I would imagine that none of the injected vaccines are any different.

While polio vaccine comes in two forms, oral and injected, you did refer to inactivated polio virus in #6 which is in the injected vaccine. A little nitpick to an otherwise great post; there are no whole animal/mammalian cells in a vaccine; they can't make it passed the filter sterilisation process intact.

And you are correct about say MMR or DTaP vaccine excipients being processed/eliminated the same. Even the antibody production is the same with the exception of an oral vaccine being first presented to MALT.

Este

 

[Dcdrac]

I didn't know it was the oral vaccine when I first started investigating it. You'll note, however, that most of the substances I reviewed provided kidney filtration rates. The kidneys are not connected to the digestive system; anything they excrete came by definition from the bloodstream. So I would imagine that none of the injected vaccines are any different.

As can be seen here:

http://www.healthline.com/human-body-maps/kidney

 

[Yerushalmi]

While polio vaccine comes in two forms, oral and injected, you did refer to inactivated polio virus in #6 which is in the injected vaccine.

As I said, most of the post was written before I discovered the vaccine I was analyzing was actually the oral one Thanks for catching the mistake, though!