Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Giordano]

Are you familiar with the term "almost mutually exclusive"?




So how does getting a vaccine once a year for 5 straight years mean the vaccine works?




And we're told it's spread to vaccinated children by sneezing adults.

Then we're told a booster shot is likely necessary.




Shouldn't the sneezing adults be spreading it to unvaccinated adults at work?

Isn't that how the flu is spread among adults?

I think you missed the main point because some of the ideas were not made explicit in the original quotes. Let me try: Older children caught the disease disproportionally because their immunity wore off; younger children, who had been vaccinated more recently, were protected. Thus another booster would help extend protection to older children. Adults, even less protected because their immunity wore off long ago, spread the disease to other adults (yes, exactly as you suggest), to older children whose immunity has lapsed, and to unvaccinated babies and younger children. A late booster would help everyone by enhancing the herd immunity. And even if you caught the disease, having been vaccinated reduced the symptoms.

 

[000063]

Are you familiar with the term "almost mutually exclusive"?




So how does getting a vaccine once a year for 5 straight years mean the vaccine works?




And we're told it's spread to vaccinated children by sneezing adults.

Then we're told a booster shot is likely necessary.




Shouldn't the sneezing adults be spreading it to unvaccinated adults at work?

Isn't that how the flu is spread among adults?

Incredulity, loaded question, fishing expedition. SOP for you.

My fav, not on your list, is the one that says the children of poor people are less likely to become autistic. That along with older men and old women just means that they would have more access to health care for their children than younger/poor parents. More access equals more vaccines.

Plus less healthy children would obviously vulnerable vaccine side effects.

Or, alternately, that they are less likely to have the quality of medical care that can accurately diagnose autism.

 

[Barber Shop]

Wrong again; lower socio-economic groups are less likely to have access to services to receive diagnoses...

Este

Funny how pretty much everyone was able to grasp this immediately with the exception of...one outspoken JREF poster.

 

[abaddon]

Are you familiar with the term "almost mutually exclusive"?

Yep, and it is bovine fecal matter. Mutual exclusivity is by definition a binary condition. It is true or it is not. There is no such thing as partially mutually exclusive. For example, you are not a hammer, a hammer is not you. These are mutually exclusive. You cannot claim you are partially a hammer.

So how does getting a vaccine once a year for 5 straight years mean the vaccine works?

Because you don't get the disease vaccinated for.

And we're told it's spread to vaccinated children by sneezing adults.

Correct, and?

Then we're told a booster shot is likely necessary.

To maintain immunity, and?

Shouldn't the sneezing adults be spreading it to unvaccinated adults at work?

they do, and?

Isn't that how the flu is spread among adults?

It is, and?

Did you have a point?

 

[Clayton Moore]

I think you missed the main point because some of the ideas were not made explicit in the original quotes. Let me try: Older children caught the disease disproportionally because their immunity wore off; younger children, who had been vaccinated more recently, were protected. Thus another booster would help extend protection to older children. Adults, even less protected because their immunity wore off long ago, spread the disease to other adults (yes, exactly as you suggest), to older children whose immunity has lapsed, and to unvaccinated babies and younger children. A late booster would help everyone by enhancing the herd immunity. And even if you caught the disease, having been vaccinated reduced the symptoms.

Last time I noticed there were more adults in the workplace pool and public pool than the children pool. There should have been many more adult cases than youth cases. Period.

About 90 percent of Vermont children have been vaccinated, Kelso said, but the immunization rate for adults is much lower, probably in the neighborhood of 10 percent. And adults are believed to be primarily responsible for spreading the disease, largely via coughing and sneezing.
Adults were falsely said to be spreading the disease because there wasn't any other common contact between the children.

 

[abaddon]

Last time I noticed there were more adults in the workplace pool and public pool than the children pool. There should have been many more adult cases than youth cases. Period.

About 90 percent of Vermont children have been vaccinated, Kelso said, but the immunization rate for adults is much lower, probably in the neighborhood of 10 percent. And adults are believed to be primarily responsible for spreading the disease, largely via coughing and sneezing.
Adults were falsely said to be spreading the disease because there wasn't any other common contact between the children.

Grown ups have kids.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Wrong again; lower socio-economic groups are less likely to have access to services to receive diagnoses. But that is changing because when we look for it, it's found. And you contradict yourself by saying poorer children would be more vulnerable to vaccine side effects but at the same time, are less likely to "become autistic".

Este

Like the 40+ year "look about" for the cause of autism?

 

[Giordano]

Last time I noticed there were more adults in the workplace pool and public pool than the children pool. There should have been many more adult cases than youth cases. Period.

About 90 percent of Vermont children have been vaccinated, Kelso said, but the immunization rate for adults is much lower, probably in the neighborhood of 10 percent. And adults are believed to be primarily responsible for spreading the disease, largely via coughing and sneezing.
Adults were falsely said to be spreading the disease because there wasn't any other common contact between the children.

Adults usually have far less severe symptoms than young children. A regular cough can be the only sign of disease in an adult, so the adults are often never diagnosed with pertussis (they think they just have a cold). The more characteristic symptoms, like the whooping type of cough, are found primarily in young children and appear late in the infection.

I found out that information in a few seconds by Googling because I wanted to be certain I remembered the facts correctly; did you even bother to research the facts before you made your post?

 

[Giordano]

Like the 40+ year "look about" for the cause of autism?

Good news! We found some causes! See post #3592, for examples!
Checked through the list-nope, vaccines are not on it.

 

[abaddon]

I found out that information in a few seconds by Googling because I wanted to be certain I remembered the facts correctly; did you even bother to research the facts before you made your post?

No Clayton simply goes with whatever crackpot website agrees with him.

ETA: Also, he declines to say why?

 

[Baffled]

Are you familiar with the term "almost mutually exclusive"?

Yep, and it is bovine fecal matter. Mutual exclusivity is by definition a binary condition. It is true or it is not. There is no such thing as partially mutually exclusive. For example, you are not a hammer, a hammer is not you. These are mutually exclusive. You cannot claim you are partially a hammer.

You nailed it.



...oops I probably could have phrased that better.

 

[NightStar76]

Hang on, hang on. Are we absolutely certain Clayton isn't a hammer? I demand a multi-million dollar study at his expense into his status as a hammer. We can't accept his own testimony - because he might be a hammer, of course - and we can't accept the word of 'scientists', because they're just 'experts', and we all know they're biased in favor of Big Reality.

 

[LSSBB]

Now y'all are just screwing around. What a bunch of tools.

 

[dafydd]

What a bunch of tools.

Tools are useful.

 

[jdc324]

Hang on, hang on. Are we absolutely certain Clayton isn't a hammer? I demand a multi-million dollar study at his expense into his status as a hammer. We can't accept his own testimony - because he might be a hammer, of course - and we can't accept the word of 'scientists', because they're just 'experts', and we all know they're biased in favor of Big Reality.

It has to be an American study, because Clayton only trusts US studies. But not involving the CDC, because Clayton would never trust a study that the CDC were a part of in any way.

 

[LSSBB]

Tools are useful.

So are jokes.

 

[dafydd]

So are jokes.

Some peoples tools are jokes.

 

[000063]

Last time I noticed there were more adults in the workplace pool and public pool than the children pool. There should have been many more adult cases than youth cases. Period.

Present facts, present conclusion, never present any logic linking the two, insist you're right.

SOP.

About 90 percent of Vermont children have been vaccinated, Kelso said, but the immunization rate for adults is much lower, probably in the neighborhood of 10 percent. And adults are believed to be primarily responsible for spreading the disease, largely via coughing and sneezing.
Adults were falsely said to be spreading the disease because there wasn't any other common contact between the children.

Once again, you accuse someone of lying with no evidence.

Like the 40+ year "look about" for the cause of autism?

Another not-assertion from Clay. Just keep the wheels spinning, is your motto.

 

[Reality Check]

About 90 percent of Vermont children have been vaccinated, Kelso said, but the immunization rate for adults is much lower, probably in the neighborhood of 10 percent. And adults are believed to be primarily responsible for spreading the disease, largely via coughing and sneezing.
Adults were falsely said to be spreading the disease because there wasn't any other common contact between the children.

Your logic and ability to understand English is flawed as usual .
The actual logic would have been

Because wasn't any other common contact between the children, adults were truthfully said to be probably spreading the disease.
​

The actual English is

Because adults had a lower imuunizatrion rate, adults were truthfully said to be probably spreading the disease.
​

Thus
About 90 percent of Vermont children have been vaccinated, Kelso said, but the immunization rate for adults is much lower, probably in the neighborhood of 10 percent. And adults are believed to be primarily responsible for spreading the disease, largely via coughing and sneezing.It is adults spreading the disease between themselves and then to unvaccinated babies and younger children, and children with lapsed immunity.

 

[Reality Check]

Are you familiar with the term "almost mutually exclusive"?

No because it does not exist except in your head.
Mutually exclusive is a binary condition.
As you quoted "DTaP vaccines are 80 percent to 90 percent effective", i.e. DTaP vaccines work.

Now if you had the fantasy that DTaP vaccines worked 100% of the time and lasted forever then the fact that some vaccinated children got whooping cough 5 years later would be actually mutually exclusive.

So how does getting a vaccine once a year for 5 straight years mean the vaccine works?

Because it works , Duh ! See above.

And we're told it's spread to vaccinated children by sneezing adults.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2012/12/13/whooping-cough-epidemic-declared-in-vermont/1768527/

About 90 percent of Vermont children have been vaccinated, Kelso said, but the immunization rate for adults is much lower, probably in the neighborhood of 10 percent. And adults are believed to be primarily responsible for spreading the disease, largely via coughing and sneezing.

And then you make up stuff about this quote!
The article is saying what everyone (but not you Clayton Moore ) should know - "Neither TDap nor the child version of the vaccine, DTaP, is foolproof". In fact no vaccine is 100% effective forever. All vaccines have a failure rate and some fade with time.

A majority of the 522 cases are in vaccinated children, Kelso said, adding that the effectiveness fades as years pass. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website, DTaP vaccines are 80 percent to 90 percent effective, and "about seven of 10 kids are fully protected five years after getting their last dose." Children typically receive five doses of DTaP between the age of 2 months and 6 years.The highest incidence in Vermont is in the 10-to-14-year-old age group, Kelso said.

Can you add numbers, Clayton Moore?
What is 6 + 5?
Is the number between 10-to-14?

Then we're told a booster shot is likely necessary.

As the bit of the article that you are unable to understand states - yes a booster shot is likely necessary because:

A majority of the 522 cases are in vaccinated children, Kelso said, adding that the effectiveness fades as years pass. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website, DTaP vaccines are 80 percent to 90 percent effective, and "about seven of 10 kids are fully protected five years after getting their last dose." Children typically receive five doses of DTaP between the age of 2 months and 6 years.
The highest incidence in Vermont is in the 10-to-14-year-old age group, Kelso said.

Shouldn't the sneezing adults be spreading it to unvaccinated adults at work?

Duh - yes !

Isn't that how the flu is spread among adults?

Duh - yes !

Are you going to ask why it gets dark at night next Clayton Moore ?