Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Acleron]

Do you scream for 24/7? Do you remain silent for 24/7? Do you have to be attended to all your waking hours? No? Then stop pretending you are one the autism victims I am talking about.

If you are going to restrict who you define as autistic then the figures you quote to back up your delusion are incorrect. From your definition there has been no increase in autism. So vaccine increase has shown no increase in autism.

Care to redefine your definition?

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

So, you're not going to be debating honestly, then? Not to say I'm surprised. But I will counter with the posters upthread that showed that doctors can (through video) see signs of autism in children younger than vaccination age. And, even if the two were related, aren't the diseases worse than the slight chance of 'catching' autism? I don't think you ever even acknowledged that I asked the question.

Clayton already "answered" that on december 15th:

If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

And that was it.

Care to answer your own question, Clayton?

 

[TheRedWorm]

Clayton already "answered" that on december 15th:

See, I really don't think that that addresses the spirit nor the letter of the questions, just as his bitching at you that you're no true autist^TM addresses the letter or the spirit of your question.

And that was it.

Care to answer your own question, Clayton?

Clay pretty much never answers questions. At least not honestly.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

See, I really don't think that that addresses the spirit nor the letter of the questions, just as his bitching at you that you're no true autist^TM addresses the letter or the spirit of your question.

He didn't specifically state that I am not a real autist. That much I am willing to give him. But not much more.

Clay pretty much never answers questions. At least not honestly.

Not even his own questions? How quaint.

 

[TheRedWorm]

He didn't specifically state that I am not a real autist. That much I am willing to give him. But not much more.

He does imply it, though. I see it a lot the the 9/11 section; people will, for example, imply that the NYPD is in on it or somesuch, without ever actually stating it, so when they are called on it, they can say "show me where I ever said the NYPD were in on it!"

Not even his own questions? How quaint.

 

[Estellea]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Like the parents who notice that their children become autistic shortly after getting the MMR vaccine?

How does that imply disease?

Because they don't become autistic; they are already autistic and the behaviours become more obvious in some at 1-2 years old. Do you even know what the DSM critieria are for ASDs? Infants are not able to exhibit certain behaviours until they are older which is why ASDs are not diagnosed until, on average, 4 years old. You're just regurgitating what you read and you are clearly not interested in actually understanding anything about what autism is.

Este

 

[Clayton Moore]

Because they don't become autistic; they are already autistic and the behaviours become more obvious in some at 1-2 years old. Do you even know what the DSM critieria are for ASDs? Infants are not able to exhibit certain behaviours until they are older which is why ASDs are not diagnosed until, on average, 4 years old. You're just regurgitating what you read and you are clearly not interested in actually understanding anything about what autism is.

Este

What a bunch of nonsense. The human race queuing up world wide with no commonality of external intrusion, other than vaccines, to become spontaneously autistic.

If anything the autism debilitation in progress was due to the wear and tear of previous vaccines beginning with the jab fest during infancy.

You can't put foreign substances into a babies body over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Oh wait you can. If you can spread around billions of dollars.
Even worse, during one session.


30 years of research and there has been no determination of a definitive cause?


People want to do what they are bludgeoned to think was right.

I found an interesting slant on a view I've held for quite a while.

"As the game continued, Nowak saw that even though Generous Tit for Tat was a long-lived strategy, it didn’t hold sway forever. There were still some Always Defectors that survived, and they were ultimately able to break down the new highly cooperative status quo. A society filled with happy cooperators becomes easy pickings for the selfish, who can tip things back toward dog-eat-dog. But that state, too, will have a few remaining cooperators who eventually tip things back to mass generosity."

http://discovermagazine.com/2012/dec/29-cooperation#.UO58oKzhXo9

 

[LSSBB]

30 years of research and there has been no determination of a definitive cause?

Here's a mind blower for you - what if there is no single definitive cause? What if factors have to combine to create autism? Not so simple then, is it?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Here's a mind blower for you - what if there is no single definitive cause? What if factors have to combine to create autism? Not so simple then, is it?

I can't even say "It's a thought." Multiple factors culminating in causing autism in 1 1/2 year old toddlers world wide?

 

[Giordano]

What a bunch of nonsense. The human race queuing up world wide with no commonality of external intrusion, other than vaccines, to become spontaneously autistic.

If anything the autism debilitation in progress was due to the wear and tear of previous vaccines beginning with the jab fest during infancy.

You can't put foreign substances into a babies body over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Oh wait you can. If you can spread around billions of dollars.
Even worse, during one session.


30 years of research and there has been no determination of a definitive cause?


People want to do what they are bludgeoned to think was right.

I found an interesting slant on a view I've held for quite a while.

"As the game continued, Nowak saw that even though Generous Tit for Tat was a long-lived strategy, it didn’t hold sway forever. There were still some Always Defectors that survived, and they were ultimately able to break down the new highly cooperative status quo. A society filled with happy cooperators becomes easy pickings for the selfish, who can tip things back toward dog-eat-dog. But that state, too, will have a few remaining cooperators who eventually tip things back to mass generosity."

http://discovermagazine.com/2012/dec/29-cooperation#.UO58oKzhXo9

I know this has been pointed out to you before, but I don't mind repeating it:

1. Are vaccines truly the only "external intrusion" that you can possibly think of that has increased in the locations that have increased autism diagnoses? Cell phone use? Disposable diapers? Computer access? Age of parents at first childbirth? Starbucks? Plastic packaging? Etc, etc, etc. All dramatically increased over the same time period!

2. Vaccination is probably the only member of the prior list that has actually been tested and shown to not cause autism

3. Conversely, increased age of fathers and increased mutation rates in sperm have been linked to some risks of autism. As have other mutations. And yes, this type of genetics applies worldwide.

4. So we do have an increased understanding of the causes of some autism, just not a full understanding of all of it. You don't like the scientific answers because they do not support your pet, but discredited theory.

5. Babies acquire foreign substances all the time, by eating, breathing, rubbing, and yes, through breaks in their skin. And those scary substances you fear in vaccines have been explained to you as safe and typically normal chemicals already found at much higher concentrations in the body than in the vaccine.

6. I realize that you view yourself as a crusader for the truth. Your passion and concern are too valuable to waste on a false cause. Read up more on biology and the immune system.! Encourage and support vaccination, one of the greatest health successes in the entire history of the world. Support real research into autism, rather than lies about vaccines.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I know this has been pointed out to you before, but I don't mind repeating it:

1. Are vaccines truly the only "external intrusion" that you can possibly think of that has increased in the locations that have increased autism diagnoses? Cell phone use? Disposable diapers? Computer access? Age of parents at first childbirth? Starbucks? Plastic packaging? Etc, etc, etc. All dramatically increased over the same time period!

2. Vaccination is probably the only member of the prior list that has actually been tested and shown to not cause autism

3. Conversely, increased age of fathers and increased mutation rates in sperm have been linked to some risks of autism. As have other mutations. And yes, this type of genetics applies worldwide.

4. So we do have an increased understanding of the causes of some autism, just not a full understanding of all of it. You don't like the scientific answers because they do not support your pet, but discredited theory.

5. Babies acquire foreign substances all the time, by eating, breathing, rubbing, and yes, through breaks in their skin. And those scary substances you fear in vaccines have been explained to you as safe and typically normal chemicals already found at much higher concentrations in the body than in the vaccine.

6. I realize that you view yourself as a crusader for the truth. Your passion and concern are too valuable to waste on a false cause. Read up more on biology and the immune system.! Encourage and support vaccination, one of the greatest health successes in the entire history of the world. Support real research into autism, rather than lies about vaccines.

You want the truth? Here's some typical vaccine nonsense. The news is agog with flu. We're told that this is the worst flu season in 7 years and that there is still time to get a flu shot.

Wait for it. Wait for it. Yet we're not told whether this year's strain of flu is covered by this years flu shot.


When would a baby encounter, through the skin, the volume amount of a foreign substance found in a vaccine jab? Or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 during the same session?

http://www.who.int/immunization_delivery/new_vaccines/20.vaccine calculator_20july_2004.pdf

 

[Clayton Moore]

I know this has been pointed out to you before, but I don't mind repeating it:


2. Vaccination is probably the only member of the prior list that has actually been tested and shown to not cause autism

Here's a repeat for you. Children's vaccines are not tested as other medicines are. There is no control group to measure against.

And as I've said before, Only the healthiest children participate. Yet all children are required to get the vaccines.

 

[LSSBB]

I can't even say "It's a thought." Multiple factors culminating in causing autism in 1 1/2 year old toddlers world wide?

Sure. Why not?

 

[Giordano]

Here's a repeat for you. Children's vaccines are not tested as other medicines are. There is no control group to measure against.

And as I've said before, Only the healthiest children participate. Yet all children are required to get the vaccines.

You brought up this fallacy about lack of controls for vaccine tests multiple times in this thread, and were shown to be wrong multiple times, including relatively recently. Why do you persist? Either explain why the posts correcting you are wrong, or stop making an erroneous claim. Don't change he subject or disappear from the thread for a week; prove you are right.

You brought up sick children not being included in vaccine tests many times in this thread, and it was explained to you many times that if sick children are included one can't determine if the vaccine or the disease is causing a given symptom. Also doctors often wait to vaccinate sick children until they are well (depending on the illness). Why do you persist? If vaccines cause autism when given to "sick" children, a link between the two would be easy to find; know of any scientific study that has shown his link?

You have yet to cite a scientific study that shows vaccination causes autism.

 

[Giordano]

You want the truth? Here's some typical vaccine nonsense. The news is agog with flu. We're told that this is the worst flu season in 7 years and that there is still time to get a flu shot.

Wait for it. Wait for it. Yet we're not told whether this year's strain of flu is covered by this years flu shot.


When would a baby encounter, through the skin, the volume amount of a foreign substance found in a vaccine jab? Or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 during the same session?

http://www.who.int/immunization_delivery/new_vaccines/20.vaccine calculator_20july_2004.pdf

It took me 5 seconds to Google search and find multiple hits explaining that this year's strains are included in the 2012/2013 vaccines. Here is one:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

You should read it- it is a nicely balanced discussion and makes it clear that some people are more protected by the vaccine than others.

The volume of the jab is meaningless: by far most of that is sterile water. The molar amounts of the different ingredients is more relevant, and these are typically trivial compared to what is already in the body. Which I believe was explained to you before in this thread.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You brought up this fallacy about lack of controls for vaccine tests multiple times in this thread, and were shown to be wrong multiple times, including relatively recently. Why do you persist? Either explain why the posts correcting you are wrong, or stop making an erroneous claim. Don't change he subject or disappear from the thread for a week; prove you are right.

You brought up sick children not being included in vaccine tests many times in this thread, and it was explained to you many times that if sick children are included one can't determine if the vaccine or the disease is causing a given symptom. Also doctors often wait to vaccinate sick children until they are well (depending on the illness). Why do you persist? If vaccines cause autism when given to "sick" children, a link between the two would be easy to find; know of any scientific study that has shown his link?

You have yet to cite a scientific study that shows vaccination causes autism.

Good grief. You inject, after I say healthiest, sick children.

 

[pakeha]

Oh, CM, you have mucked up your argument rather dreadfully.

Do you scream for 24/7? Do you remain silent for 24/7? Do you have to be attended to all your waking hours? No? Then stop pretending you are one the autism victims I am talking about.

CM, you have yet to show there is any link between vaxx and autism.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Like the parents who notice that their children become autistic shortly after getting the MMR vaccine?

How does that imply disease?

Because they don't become autistic; they are already autistic and the behaviours become more obvious in some at 1-2 years old. Do you even know what the DSM critieria are for ASDs? Infants are not able to exhibit certain behaviours until they are older which is why ASDs are not diagnosed until, on average, 4 years old. You're just regurgitating what you read and you are clearly not interested in actually understanding anything about what autism is.

Este

What a bunch of nonsense. The human race queuing up world wide with no commonality of external intrusion, other than vaccines, to become spontaneously autistic. ...

Really, CM, I'd have thought you could do better than that.

 

[Dcdrac]

The hard REAL science is stacked against CM yet he still contines to try to bail out his boat with all those holes in it

 

[zooterkin]

The reason there are so few deaths after an acute measles infection is the ability of modern medicine's to cure disease in comparison to that of the 1950s.

It's almost as if you didn't read the earlier messages where it was explained that there is still no treatment for measles.

 

[crhkrebs]

What a bunch of nonsense. The human race queuing up world wide with no commonality of external intrusion, other than vaccines,.....

Stupid comments like this have got your "pet" topic relegated to the Conspiracy Theories board, from the Science board.

Clayton, you must be proud.