Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Giordano]

I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.

You've already repeatedly established that what you "doubt" is of very little relevance to the medical facts and to what actually happens.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8841089&postcount=220





You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You've already repeatedly established that what you "doubt" is of very little relevance to the medical facts and to what actually happens.

So you're saying the 12 children died because of an infection?

 

[Clayton Moore]

I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.

Let me edit that to less than 2 days.

 

[TheRedWorm]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8841089&postcount=220





You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.

There is no evidence to suggest that vaccines cause autism. And even if there were some increased risk of autism associated with said vaccines, it would still be worth it as the diseases that vaccines prevent are potentially fatal, while autism is generally not.

 

[zooterkin]

You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.

Of course they would, if there was the slightest shred of evidence that there was any connection whatsoever between vaccination and autism.

 

[Tolls]

I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.

You see how you feel after injecting live Staph virus into your self...

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8841089&postcount=220





You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.

Yes, its absolutely mindboggling that there are not more studies of "lets NOT protect children against potential fatal diseases because some people dont understand medicine".

There have been mutliple studies to see if there is a true connection between autism and vaccination. All of them, except the one by someone who wanted to push his own version of a vaccine, say no.
How much money went down that drain that could have been used to actually help understand autism? Or at least used to help autistic children?

You've been show (several times) that the rise in autism can be correlated to a large amount of irrelevant factors (organic food sales, amount of internet use in a random country) I'd add the size of computer chips, the smaller and more powerful they get, the more autism is reported.
Why is it so hard to accept that there IS no link? That the rise in autism reported is most likely due to it being diagnosed better, or even at all and earlier? And that the first time it can be detected in a baby just accidentally coincides with the time they would also get vaccinations?

 

[Dcdrac]

I found this interesting it is of course just illustrating a point

http://www.science20.com/quantum_diaries_survivor/correlation_causation_independence-98944

"Puns aside, the distinction between correlation and causation should be clear to anybody reading this blog. For instance those arguing that vaccines cause autism on the basis of vague correlation measurements should have a look at the graph above (courtesy Hank's Facebook account) which would have them conclude that organic foods are rather the cause of autism! (But others might conclude that it is parents of autistic children who buy all the organic foods...) "

 

[ehcks]

To be fair, mercurycompounds and ions are always toxic.
Of course so is anything if taken to excess, but the thresholds for mercury compounds are low.
But well known and researched, which is why in a vaccine the amounts are calibrated to ensure that any injection will remain well below such a treshold.
And since the halflife of the mercury compound generated by thiomersal is measured in days, the body will purge itself of the mercury over a relatively short time. Provided you don't immediately inject more it is therefore safe.
Of course, replacing it with methods that do not require a toxic compound at all if preferable, which is why most vaccines no longer require the compound.

Sure, but table salt is also toxic in high enough doses.

The comparison between ethyl- and methyl-mercury is handily similar to between ethyl- and methyl-alcohol. One is extremely dangerous in even tiny amounts, such as a tablespoon of methyl-alcohol will kill you, while the other is generally safe in much higher doses but will still eventually kill you.

Vaccines stay incredibly far under either dosage. Thiomersal has an LD50 of 75mg/kg, but the limit per vaccine is .5mg/L. I'm not sure on the density of a vaccine, but if it's near water, that's about .5mg/kg, and you'd need to take about 150kg of vaccine per kg of your own weight to die from the mercury.

At least I think I did that math right. It's so hilariously impossible I'm sure I messed something up. But anyway, we're not really getting anywhere, because there are no children's vaccines with any mercury at all.

 

[abaddon]

Sure, but table salt is also toxic in high enough doses.

The comparison between ethyl- and methyl-mercury is handily similar to between ethyl- and methyl-alcohol. One is extremely dangerous in even tiny amounts, such as a tablespoon of methyl-alcohol will kill you, while the other is generally safe in much higher doses but will still eventually kill you.

Vaccines stay incredibly far under either dosage. Thiomersal has an LD50 of 75mg/kg, but the limit per vaccine is .5mg/L. I'm not sure on the density of a vaccine, but if it's near water, that's about .5mg/kg, and you'd need to take about 150kg of vaccine per kg of your own weight to die from the mercury.

At least I think I did that math right. It's so hilariously impossible I'm sure I messed something up. But anyway, we're not really getting anywhere, because there are no children's vaccines with any mercury at all.

Roll that thought out further. One would have to take 60,000 vaccinations to reach an LD50 dose.

 

[jdc324]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8841089&postcount=220





You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic. Instead they add 4th vaccine to the MMR.

You'd think that with (a) the large amount of consistent evidence from various types of epidemiological study, conducted by independent scientists from around the world, showing no link between MMR and autism and (b) the very real danger of death or disability caused by vaccine-preventable infectious diseases such as measles, the geniuses of the anti-vaccine community would see why such a study would be an incredibly stupid, dangerous and pointless endeavour.

Apparently not.

 

[abaddon]

You'd think that with (a) the large amount of consistent evidence from various types of epidemiological study, conducted by independent scientists from around the world, showing no link between MMR and autism and (b) the very real danger of death or disability caused by vaccine-preventable infectious diseases such as measles, the geniuses of the anti-vaccine community would see why such a study would be an incredibly stupid, dangerous and pointless endeavour.

Apparently not.

I will put your point more bluntly:

How many dead and disabled toddlers are acceptable in your proposed study, Clayton?

 

[crhkrebs]

You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic.

That's a dumb idea since there is no correlation between vaccines and Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD).

The most likely source is a genetic one complicated by environmental risk factors.

More boys are affected with ASD than girls.
ASD tends to run in families.
Maternal twins (genetically identical) have a 77% chance in boys and a 50% in girls for both twins to have ASD.
Fraternal twins (not genetically related any more than other siblings) have a 31% chance in boys and a 36% chance in girls for both fraternal twins to have ASD.
Siblings have a about a 10-20% chance in having ASD, if one already has ASD.

Therefore there is not only a genetic cause, but an environmental factor also, that being the conditions within the mother's womb. Genetically similar (but not identical) siblings almost triple the chance of developing ASD when in the womb together, than siblings born at different times.

Risk factors that have shown some correlation to the development of ASD includes, mother's age, father's age, antidepressant use during pregnancy, and illness during pregnancy. Much more research is needed.

Is Autism, at Least in Part, a Disorder of Fetal Programming?

Dr. Peter Szatmari, MD, Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2011;68(11):1091-1092.

Genetic Heritability and Shared Environmental Factors Among Twin Pairs With Autism

Joachim Hallmayer, MD; et al, Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2011;68(11):1095-1102.

 

[Clayton Moore]

There is no evidence to suggest that vaccines cause autism.

Except the evidence of hundreds of thousands of parents who have said that their toddlers were perfectly normal until just days after the MMR vaccinations.

 

[Clayton Moore]

And even if there were some increased risk of autism associated with said vaccines, it would still be worth it as the diseases that vaccines prevent are potentially fatal, while autism is generally not.

If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

 

[Estellea]

Except the evidence of hundreds of thousands of parents who have said that their toddlers were perfectly normal until just days after the MMR vaccinations.

No Clay, there is no evidence of "hundreds of thousands" of parents claiming that. There were only a handful in the UK GSK suit and 5K in the US NVICP OAP. And if you would bother to read the OAP transcripts (which I know you won't do) it is obvious the tenuous grasp on reality that the parents and the "experts" actually had. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how "heavy metals" are in MMR and MMR-V. Can't you answer this Clay?

If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

I've pointed out your offence before and I will do it just one more time. Autists aren't as good as dead; autism isn't a death sentence. There are quite a few autists on this board and your statements are very offensive and wrong. Having worked with adult autists and having child autists in my life, you are clearly ignorant on the subject so just stop trying to characterise autism.

Este

 

[TheRedWorm]

If you knew today that you would become autistic tomorrow would you consider becoming autistic a death sentence?

Not in the least. And, since both my parents grew up through the horrors of polio, I wouldn't hesitate to vaccinate any future children I might have, either.

 

[pakeha]

...
Maternal twins (genetically identical) have a 77% chance in boys and a 50% in girls for both twins to have ASD. ...

Thanks for the links.
CM, could you comment on the above figure, please?
77% is pretty high odds, don't you think?

Except the evidence of hundreds of thousands of parents who have said that their toddlers were perfectly normal until just days after the MMR vaccinations.

CM, you already know the relation between the vaxx and the appearance of ASD symptoms, don't you?

 

[crhkrebs]

Except the evidence of hundreds of thousands of parents who have said that their toddlers were perfectly normal until just days after the MMR vaccinations.

First, you made up the number of "hundreds of thousands" of parents. Clearly a large sample like this would be easy to study. And it has been. There is no relationship between vaccination and ASD.

Secondly, it's called confirmation bias, Clayton. The initial dose of MMR is given
at around one year of age. This is roughly the time that the child is old enough for the signs of ASD to manifest themselves. The parents, like you Clayton, confuse correlation with causation.

Thirdly, your statement of, ".......just days after the MMR vaccinations." doesn't hold water with the epidemiology. Some kids showed ASD symptoms prior to their vaccinations. Plus, how do you explain the fact that unvaccinated kids also have developed ASD?

Lastly, please explain the twin studies of ASD children. How do you explain that maternal twins of ASD sufferers are 7 times more likely to develop ASD than the siblings of ASD sufferers? Or that fraternal twins of ASD sufferers are 3 times more likely to develop ASD than their siblings?

It ain't the vaccine, Clayton.

Rutter M. Incidence of autism spectrum disorders: changes over time and their meaning. Acta Paediatr. 2005;94(1):2–15.