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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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First, you made up the number of "hundreds of thousands" of parents. Clearly a large sample like this would be easy to study. And it has been. There is no relationship between vaccination and ASD.

Secondly, it's called confirmation bias, Clayton. The initial dose of MMR is given
at around one year of age. This is roughly the time that the child is old enough for the signs of ASD to manifest themselves. The parents, like you Clayton, confuse correlation with causation.

Thirdly, your statement of, ".......just days after the MMR vaccinations." doesn't hold water with the epidemiology. Some kids showed ASD symptoms prior to their vaccinations. Plus, how do you explain the fact that unvaccinated kids also have developed ASD?

Lastly, please explain the twin studies of ASD children. How do you explain that maternal twins of ASD sufferers are 7 times more likely to develop ASD than the siblings of ASD sufferers? Or that fraternal twins of ASD sufferers are 3 times more likely to develop ASD than their siblings?

It ain't the vaccine, Clayton.

Rutter M. Incidence of autism spectrum disorders: changes over time and their meaning. Acta Paediatr. 2005;94(1):2–15.

Great post, but you are screaming at the wind. Clayton has already made up his mind and will joyfully ignore any talk of confirmation bias, studies, or even asking how he eliminated any other possible correlation in favour of the one he wants to blame.
 
It would be dangerous, unethical, and unnecessary. It should never be done. I very much doubt anyone will ever do it. However... I can't help but wonder how Clayton's proposed study would be conducted.

You'd think the geniuses of the medical community would oversee a study that postponed, with parental permission, the MMR vaccine schedule for a year to see how that affected when toddlers become autistic.
What are you proposing Clayton? To delay the MMR vaccination for 12 months for a single birth cohort? (E.g. all babies born in 2013 would have the MMR vaccine a year late.)

And what would you be hoping to discover? Whether age of onset of autism was associated with vaccination?
 
It would be dangerous, unethical, and unnecessary. It should never be done. I very much doubt anyone will ever do it. However... I can't help but wonder how Clayton's proposed study would be conducted.

What are you proposing Clayton? To delay the MMR vaccination for 12 months for a single birth cohort? (E.g. all babies born in 2013 would have the MMR vaccine a year late.)

And what would you be hoping to discover? Whether age of onset of autism was associated with vaccination?
Actually, this has been done as a result of MMR withdrawal in Japan and autism rates actually increased after MMR was no longer given.

Tough luck Clay.

ETA: Eventually the monovalent vaccines were used and mumps and rubella incidence has gone up steadily since the withdrawal of MMR due to changes in vaccine recommendations.

Este
 
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I doubt that any of them died of an infection in less than a day.
Your ignorance is still showing, Clayton Moore, (or your inability to read).
I did not say that the children in this trial which demonstrated the need for preservatives in repeated-used vaccines died in less than one day.
They actually died over 2 days
Thimerosal in Vaccines
One particularly telling incident from Australia is described by Sir Graham S. Wilson in his classic book, The Hazards of Immunization
In January 1928, in the early stages of an immunization campaign against diphtheria, Dr. Ewing George Thomson, Medical Officer of Health of Bundaberg, began the injection of children with toxin-antitoxin mixture. The material was taken from an India-rubber-capped bottle containing 10 mL of TAM. On the 17th, 20th, 21, and 24th January, Dr. Thomson injected subcutaneously a total of 21 children without ill effect. On the 27th a further 21 children were injected.Of these children .eleven died on the 28th and one on the 29th. (Wilson 1967)​
This disaster was investigated by a Royal Commission and the final sentence in the summary of their findings reads as follows:
The consideration of all possible evidence concerning the deaths at Bundeberg points to the injection of living staphylococci as the cause of the fatalities.​
From this experience, the Royal Commission recommended that biological products in which the growth of a pathogenic organism is possible should not be issued in containers for repeated use unless there is a sufficient concentration of antiseptic (preservative) to inhibit bacterial growth.
In case you cannot understand this:
  1. eleven died on the 28th of infection (1 day after the injection)
  2. one on the 29th (2 days after the injection)
 
Also, I did not realize the MMR vaccine was all live virus. So no mercury as as an antispetic agent. Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?
 
... Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?

It is only by those who are ignorant about the issues. Almost ten years ago I was on a listserv for my son's disability. Someone asked a question about the MMR vaccine, and another person replied with a warning on thimerosal. I then replied saying: "For clarification, the MMR vaccine has never contained thimerosal."

Then the person who had posted a warning on thimerosal emailed the moderator telling her to ban me from the listserv for not being up on the science. I replied that all she had to do was provide the evidence the MMR contained thimerosal, while providing CDC links explaining why it never contained it. They backed down.

Then on any online discussion I would note that you can tell the level of knowledge someone had on vaccines was in the basement when they said this phrase: "the thimerosal in the MMR vaccine." It is somewhere up there with "vaccines being directly injected in the bloodstream."
 
I read the entire study, and was shocked to find out why they stopped giving the MMR vaccine.
Why? The Urabe mumps vaccine strain was associated with an increased risk of asceptic meningitis. Unfortunately, the Japanese government is too stubborn and nationalistic to import MMR-II and will not implement a vaccine programme to provide adequate measles, mumps and rubella coverage.

Also, I did not realize the MMR vaccine was all live virus. So no mercury as as an antispetic agent. Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?
Clay stated that MMR and MMR-V contained "heavy metals" and as Chris explained is the hallmark of ignorant anti-vaxx rhetoric. Clay refuses to either provide substantiation or admit he made a mistake.

Este
 
No Clay, there is no evidence of "hundreds of thousands" of parents claiming that. There were only a handful in the UK GSK suit and 5K in the US NVICP OAP. And if you would bother to read the OAP transcripts (which I know you won't do) it is obvious the tenuous grasp on reality that the parents and the "experts" actually had. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how "heavy metals" are in MMR and MMR-V. Can't you answer this Clay?


I've pointed out your offence before and I will do it just one more time. Autists aren't as good as dead; autism isn't a death sentence. There are quite a few autists on this board and your statements are very offensive and wrong. Having worked with adult autists and having child autists in my life, you are clearly ignorant on the subject so just stop trying to characterise autism.

Este

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw


Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.
 
There's evidence outside of Youtube? What, you mean like yahoo video, vimeo, or metacafe?

I was thinking along the lines of real studies carried out by people who actually know what they are talking about.
 
I was thinking along the lines of real studies carried out by people who actually know what they are talking about.



I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
 
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

Because they have a degree in medicine/biochemistry/genetics and did an extensive study with controls, double blinds and everything else required to actually rise above and beyond mere conjecture?
I'd love to see their papers with data.
 
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
Individual data points can show up all over the map. What do the aggregates show, Clayton?

By the way, why aren't you answering Bram Kaandorp regarding your little "Death Sentence" dramatic tootsie roll you left on the carpet? Left speechless? Are you afraid to touch it?
 
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

After they ruled out all other causes? My youngest brother has four daughters, one of whom is severely autistic. They were all vaccinated with MMR, and he doesn't blame the vaccines.
 
But we do have a way to excrete it from the body. You do it daily (at least, most people do)
Thiomersal halflife in a mammal is well studied.
I pointed out to Clayton (several pages ago, with references) that we excrete ethylmercury (I even told him how we did so).

He seems to have completely ignored that. No doubt he will do so again.
 
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