Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[abaddon]

Mr Moore you have consistantly not answered any questions put to you, in fact you have hand waved, pointed to youtube videos and obviously crank websites run by the ignorant or those that have a wildly anti modern medicine agenda.

The same modern medicine that saves millions of lives.

Maybe he is part of the NWO which, supposedly, wants 90% of the world population dead.

I can think of no more insidious method of achieving this goal, than the elimination of modern medicine. 90% dead would be easy if one could discredit modern medicine.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You also believe that there is NO genetic relation between Europeans, Chinese. Africans, etc, a belief which is utter nonsense. Were it true, no, say, mulattos could ever be born. European/chinese marriages would all be sterile and so on.

Way to spew nonsense. The world knows I was talking about genetic family lines.

 

[abaddon]

Way to spew nonsense. The world knows I was talking about genetic family lines.

Indeed it does. I can't help if you don't.

 

[Stamuel]

think Clayton Moore has at least implicitly answered all of Reality Check's questions from post 5865, most of them correctly even.



1. By citing no studies at all he has successfully cited every legitimate study showing that vaccines cause autism. We can take this as his answer to the first question: there are none.



2. By ignoring the question about autism being cancer, he is accepting the default that autism is not cancer.



3. Again, by citing no scientific evidence that vaccines have enough carcinogens to affect recipients, he has successfully cited all legitimate scientific evidence.



4. Same for evidence vaccines cause allergies.



5. Same for evidence vaccines cause cancer.



6. Same for evidence vaccines cause MS.



7. I think we can assume that Clay knows that 2002 is not 2013, which is why he left this implicit as well.



8. By citing no studies at all, he has cited all studies linking MMR to autism between 1978 and 1988.



9. By citing nothing, he has cited all the science linking vaccines to asthma.



10. He did cite his source for the claim of lack of fear of measles etc 60 years ago: he is not afraid now. Proves less than nothing, but it is his source.



11. In citing only crank blogs, he has cited all his evidence for increase in chronic illness. He has implicitly admitted as much by saying he has answered this question after citing only crank blogs.



12. I think he actually did cite a real study about immune system overstimulation. It had nothing at all to do with vaccines, but I think it is cited somewhere.



13. As pointed out, continued citation of crank blogs is an implicit answer that Clay does not understand what a citation to the scientific literature is.



14. Clay has already cited all existing evidence that Al in vaccines causes Alzheimer's: he cited nothing.



So if you look at his posting history, it is exactly as he says. He answered every question quite clearly, though usually implicitly. He fully admits that there is no scientific evidence for any of his claims about the horrors of vaccines. No need to keep asking, we have his clear answers.

 

[jdc324]

My responses to those questions have been clear and valid. The trend in this thread and many JREF threads is to go into the famous MP Argument skit
"no you didn't" mode.

As you still haven't shown where you have answered those questions, I'll start looking for myself. On p121 (10th April, 1:31am in my time zone) you refer to vaccines causing MS: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208758&page=121

On the next page, post #4846 asks you to cite the evidence for that.

You make a number of posts on pages 122, 123 and 124. None of them even mention MS. I kept going. I got as far as page 129, over a week later, with plenty of posts from you appearing on a regular basis and not one mentions MS.

Can you tell me where and when you answered the request from Reality Check to cite the evidence for your claim? Because I've gone through about ten days worth of posts from you so far and you've not even mentioned MS let alone provided evidence for your claim or admitted to not having any.

If you refuse to back up what you say (for example that you have provided clear and valid responses) then I'm going to be suspicious. I've now taken the trouble to confirm my suspicions. In future, I won't bother. It's easier to simply assume you're not telling the truth and in the absence of contrary evidence I'm happy to assume that my approach will be accurate more often than not.

 

[jdc324]

Here's another. Days after being asked to provide evidence for your claim that vaccines cause asthma (and not having even attempted to reply), another poster asks you a slightly different question (where is your evidence that MMR causes asthma). Now, you do reply to their post. Do you think your reply was clear and valid?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9197295&postcount=5326

Logged in as Clayton Moore

 

[Reality Check]

My responses to those questions have been clear and valid.

That is good - then you can provide links to the posts where you provided the clear and valid scientific evidence that backed up the claims that I questioned.

Are these only regurgitated paranoid fantasies and some original ones, Clayton Moore ?
Clayton Moore: Cite the studies showing the links between the MMR jab and autism.
First asked 4 March 2013 - 106 days and counting!
Clayton Moore, Do you really think that autism is a form of cancer?
First asked 8 April 2013 - 70 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Please cite the scientific evidence for levels of carcinogens in vaccines enough to affect the vaccinated.
First asked 8 April 2013 - 70 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause allergies.
First asked 10 April 2013 - 70 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause cancer.
First asked 10 April 2013 - 70 days and counting.
Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause MS.
First asked 10 April 2013 - 70 days and counting
Clayton Moore: are you rational enough to understand that 2002 is not 2013, etc.
First asked 18 April 2013 - 62 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Please cite your evidence for the rise of autism between 1978 and 1988
First asked 26th April 2013 - 55 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Are you intelligent enough to cite the science that vaccines can cause asthma?
First asked 30th April 2013 - 50 days and counting
Clayton Moore: Sources for 60 years ago there was little fear of the measles, mumps, or chicken pox
First asked 14 May 2013 - 36 days and counting
Clayton Moore: Evidence for the increase in chronically sick people in the USA
First asked 15 May 2013 - 35 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Exactly how is the Danish study "bogus"?
First asked 24 May 2013 - 26 days and counting
Clayton Moore, What is your evidence that any immune system can be "over simulated"?
First asked 10 June 2013 - 9 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Have you any idea what a citation to the scientific literature is?
Your continued citations of crank web sites says no!
First asked 13 June 2013 - 7 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Cite the evidence that Al in vaccines increases Alzheimer’s Disease
First asked 14 June 2013 - 5 days and counting.
Clayton Moore, Please give the source for the cause of death of this "little girl"
This will actually take a while because you made up a fantasy about the cause while the ME's verdict is outstanding.
First asked 17 June 2013 - 2 days and counting.

 

[jdc324]

That is good - then you can provide links to the posts where you provided the clear and valid scientific evidence that backed up the claims that I questioned.

Are these only regurgitated paranoid fantasies and some original ones, Clayton Moore ?
Clayton Moore: Cite the studies showing the links between the MMR jab and autism.
First asked 4 March 2013 - 106 days and counting!
Clayton Moore, Do you really think that autism is a form of cancer?
First asked 8 April 2013 - 70 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Please cite the scientific evidence for levels of carcinogens in vaccines enough to affect the vaccinated.
First asked 8 April 2013 - 70 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause allergies.
First asked 10 April 2013 - 70 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause cancer.
First asked 10 April 2013 - 70 days and counting.
Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause MS.
First asked 10 April 2013 - 70 days and counting
Clayton Moore: are you rational enough to understand that 2002 is not 2013, etc.
First asked 18 April 2013 - 62 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Please cite your evidence for the rise of autism between 1978 and 1988
First asked 26th April 2013 - 55 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Are you intelligent enough to cite the science that vaccines can cause asthma?
First asked 30th April 2013 - 50 days and counting
Clayton Moore: Sources for 60 years ago there was little fear of the measles, mumps, or chicken pox
First asked 14 May 2013 - 36 days and counting
Clayton Moore: Evidence for the increase in chronically sick people in the USA
First asked 15 May 2013 - 35 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Exactly how is the Danish study "bogus"?
First asked 24 May 2013 - 26 days and counting
Clayton Moore, What is your evidence that any immune system can be "over simulated"?
First asked 10 June 2013 - 9 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Have you any idea what a citation to the scientific literature is?
Your continued citations of crank web sites says no!
First asked 13 June 2013 - 7 days and counting
Clayton Moore, Cite the evidence that Al in vaccines increases Alzheimer’s Disease
First asked 14 June 2013 - 5 days and counting.
Clayton Moore, Please give the source for the cause of death of this "little girl"
This will actually take a while because you made up a fantasy about the cause while the ME's verdict is outstanding.
First asked 17 June 2013 - 2 days and counting.

It might take him a while to find them all. Perhaps he should go through them slowly and maybe start with just one at a time? He could show us the post where he answered your request for evidence re vaccines and MS for a start (I'd prefer a clear and valid answer but perhaps that would be asking too much). I've already done a bit of the work for him. He could start from page 129.

 

[Diogenes]

It might take him a while to find them all...

If CM hadn't let them pile-up for the last 106 days there would be a much shorter list.

 

[Dcdrac]

It is simple Moore can not support any of his contentions about MMR and vaccines in general and is evidentally anti modern medicine

 

[jdc324]

It might take him a while to find them all...

If CM hadn't let them pile-up for the last 106 days there would be a much shorter list.

That is true. I was bending over backwards to try to be as fair to him as I possibly could.

The fact that at least some of his clear and valid answers (perhaps all) are non-existent might prove to be something of a stumbling block too, now that I think about it.

 

[000063]

My responses to those questions have been clear and valid. The trend in this thread and many JREF threads is to go into the famous MP Argument skit
"no you didn't" mode.

CM: I already answered these questions.
JDC: Prove it. I don't think you can.
CM: I already answered these questions.

If CM hadn't let them pile-up for the last 106 days there would be a much shorter list.

It's like cleaning your room or washing the dishes, except if you didn't do either of those things for three months.

No, wait, Clay's been doing this nonsense for years. RC just started tracking 106 days ago.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Hopefully all is well with Giordano. I even cross my fingers in the hope he now understands the obvious debacle that is vaccines.

 

[Dcdrac]

vaccines are a stunning success story the only debacle is the anti vaxxer nonsense about them

 

[jdc324]

Oh good, Clayton has rejoined us.

Got a link to that clear and valid response to the request for evidence that vaccines cause MS yet Clayton? Or did you decide to start with another of the items on Reality Check's list?

 

[Reality Check]

Can you cite the evidence that support your statement that vaccines are a "debacle"

Hopefully all is well with Giordano. I even cross my fingers in the hope he now understands the obvious debacle that is vaccines.

Oh goody - what looks like another delusion, Clayton Moore !

Clayton Moore,
Can you cite the scientific studies that support your statement that vaccines are a "debacle"?
First asked 24 June 2013 - 0 days and counting.
Debacle

A débâcle is an event that turns out as a disaster.

The delusional part includes that your statement is way too general, i.e. applies to all vaccines.
You will have to show that every vaccine has not saved lives. Start by explaining where smallpox went .

Smallpox was responsible for an estimated 300–500 million deaths during the 20th century.[13][14][15] As recently as 1967, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated that 15 million people contracted the disease and that two million died in that year.[5]

You will have to show that the costs of all of the vaccines (a tiny amount of harm and death) vastly outweighs the benefits of vaccines (an enormous prevention of harm and death).

 

[Mudcat]

Hello all, I don't know if this somewhat unrelated story has been brought up yet, but here is a story that should blow Clayton's mind. Apparently a team has cured a girl's cancer... Using HIV?

When chemotherapy failed to work for Emily Whitehead, diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia, she underwent a new experimental treatment at The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

It involved tricking her immune system into fighting the cancer cells - and, six months later, Emily remains in remission.

That story was dated in December of last year, but a recent update shows that the girl is doing well and is showing no signs of cancer, HIV, AIDS, or Autism.

Thoughts Clayton?

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/50-r...te-your-children-w-video/#32pYTk0vRoXIsHZM.99

39. It has been scientifically proven that vaccines cannot prevent disease. Vaccines try to create humoral (blood related immunity) whereas it has been found that immunity is developed at various levels, humoral, cellular, and organ specific. We still do not know enough about the human immune system and therefore should not interfere with it. According to concerned immunologists the “sailnt like immune system can convert into a massive negative force that can put the devil into shame” if interfered with unnecessarily.

50. As per the Institute Of Medicine, USA, vaccine research for a probable link between vaccines and autism should not be conducted. The Institute of Medicine in its last report on vaccines and autism in 2004 said that more research on the vaccine question is counterproductive: Finding a susceptibility to this risk in some infants would call into question the universal vaccination strategy that is a bedrock of immunization programs and could lead to widespread rejection of vaccines. The IOM concluded that efforts to find a link between vaccines and autism “must be balanced against the broader benefit of the current vaccine program for all children”. However inherently biased studies that try to disprove a link between vaccines and autism have been allowed and funded by the CDC. The Principal Coordinator of many of these studies (referred to as The Danish Studies) Dr Paul Thorsen, has recently been in the news for money laundering and fraudulently misappropriating a huge chunk of research funds channeled towards these studies calling into question the veracity of the conclusion reached in these studies. The CDC study done by Dr Thomas Verstraeten manipulated data as revealed by RTI activists. Dr Verstraeten later joined a vaccine MNC. (Early in his study, the lead author, CDC’s Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, found statistically significant associations between the amount of mercury (thimerosal) exposure children got from their childhood vaccines, and a wide range of brain disorders. However, the published version of the study (the one the authors say is accurate) found no evidence of a link to autism. Not disclosed was that Dr. Verstraeten had left CDC midstream during the study and had gone to work for Glaxo, a vaccine manufacturer).

What does this all add up to? Infants should be sacrificed in order to perpetuate an unscientific procedure?

 

[zooterkin]

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/50-r...te-your-children-w-video/#32pYTk0vRoXIsHZM.99

Are we supposed to be convinced by this unsubstantiated nonsense?

 

[FrederickEason]

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/50-r...te-your-children-w-video/#32pYTk0vRoXIsHZM.99

Here's a tip: Just because a cranky conspiracy theorist website says something is "scientifically proven", it doesn't mean it actually is. And if it doesn't mention which scientists "proved" it, it's probably a lie.